Ruediger:
Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
About the series-5 controller, currently it only works with series-5 focuser/rotator on the Delta Rho, but PW has hinted to me that it may be adapted for CDK14 and up with Hedrick focusers. I think in order for them to come to their senses customer demand is key.
Right now they insist that the current EFA+DT combo works well for many of their scopes up to 1m ones deployed around the world. I doubt it in very humid climates, but I tend to agree with them for a setup in, for example, New Mexico.
That’s what they had told me too - until I have proven by evidence that it cannot work under some conditions. After that they admitted they never tested it under less optimal conditions.
I gave up on that point. DHM works for me now, but the basic concept fails by design.
CS
Rüdiger
What is DHM? I saw this mentioned before, is this a new software solution that helps make Delta-T more useful?
After more than a year back and forth, PWI accepted that it does not work in my climate conditions and a lake of water in the tube. They have provided (as work around) an additional piece of software which can evaluate an ASCOM humidities sensor and controls fans and heaters based on the dew point instead of temperature only. This was never officially published, since „everything works so great“ 🤪
Only with DHM (Dew Heater Manager) I can run the CDK in my climate conditions, which is actually quite average.
The link Rouz provided earlier has a download for Dew Heater Manager 1.0.0 and 1.0.1. I have downloaded them both.
Link: Index of /files/tools (planewave.com)
So, if I understand you correctly, this can use any ASCOM Observing Conditions driver to evaluate humidity data to make decisions about operating the heaters and fans? If so, how does it then tell the fans to run? I thought the EFA was needed to interface with the fans?
Does this run on its own or do you run with the other PWI3/4 software?
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Ruediger:
Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
About the series-5 controller, currently it only works with series-5 focuser/rotator on the Delta Rho, but PW has hinted to me that it may be adapted for CDK14 and up with Hedrick focusers. I think in order for them to come to their senses customer demand is key.
Right now they insist that the current EFA+DT combo works well for many of their scopes up to 1m ones deployed around the world. I doubt it in very humid climates, but I tend to agree with them for a setup in, for example, New Mexico.
That’s what they had told me too - until I have proven by evidence that it cannot work under some conditions. After that they admitted they never tested it under less optimal conditions.
I gave up on that point. DHM works for me now, but the basic concept fails by design.
CS
Rüdiger
What is DHM? I saw this mentioned before, is this a new software solution that helps make Delta-T more useful?
After more than a year back and forth, PWI accepted that it does not work in my climate conditions and a lake of water in the tube. They have provided (as work around) an additional piece of software which can evaluate an ASCOM humidities sensor and controls fans and heaters based on the dew point instead of temperature only. This was never officially published, since „everything works so great“ 🤪
Only with DHM (Dew Heater Manager) I can run the CDK in my climate conditions, which is actually quite average.
The link Rouz provided earlier has a download for Dew Heater Manager 1.0.0 and 1.0.1. I have downloaded them both.
Link: Index of /files/tools (planewave.com)
So, if I understand you correctly, this can use any ASCOM Observing Conditions driver to evaluate humidity data to make decisions about operating the heaters and fans? If so, how does it then tell the fans to run? I thought the EFA was needed to interface with the fans?
Does this run on its own or do you run with the other PWI3/4 software?
The PWI 3.5.x SW provides an API which is controlled by DHM, which contains the logic and uses PWI SW only as mid tear SW. it does not work with PWI 4.x.
Yes, you can evaluate a humidity value provided by the ASCOM environmental hub.
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Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
About the series-5 controller, currently it only works with series-5 focuser/rotator on the Delta Rho, but PW has hinted to me that it may be adapted for CDK14 and up with Hedrick focusers. I think in order for them to come to their senses customer demand is key.
Right now they insist that the current EFA+DT combo works well for many of their scopes up to 1m ones deployed around the world. I doubt it in very humid climates, but I tend to agree with them for a setup in, for example, New Mexico.
That’s what they had told me too - until I have proven by evidence that it cannot work under some conditions. After that they admitted they never tested it under less optimal conditions.
I gave up on that point. DHM works for me now, but the basic concept fails by design.
CS
Rüdiger
What is DHM? I saw this mentioned before, is this a new software solution that helps make Delta-T more useful?
I had to PM Ruediger for a copy of DHM (thanks again Ruediger), but I just found that Rouz had posted a link somewhere in the thread for an official download (in a basic page showing the download directory).
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Yes it is in the file repository meanwhile, but it is not listed on the web page. You have to know what you are looking for on the file share 😜
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Yuxuan:
I had to PM Ruediger for a copy of DHM (thanks again Ruediger), but I just found that Rouz had posted a link somewhere in the thread for an official download (in a basic page showing the download directory).
Yes, I share the same link in my response:
Index of /files/tools (planewave.com)
So, one would use DHM, PWI 3.5.x, and ASCOM Observing Conditions compatible data to control the heaters? Or both the heaters and the fans? If the fans are controlled as well -- how? I thought the EFA was needed for that?
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Ruediger:
Yes it is in the file repository meanwhile, but it is not listed on the web page. You have to know what you are looking for on the file share 😜
Seems pretty obvious to me:
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Yuxuan:
I had to PM Ruediger for a copy of DHM (thanks again Ruediger), but I just found that Rouz had posted a link somewhere in the thread for an official download (in a basic page showing the download directory).
Yes, I share the same link in my response:
Index of /files/tools (planewave.com)
So, one would use DHM, PWI 3.5.x, and ASCOM Observing Conditions compatible data to control the heaters? Or both the heaters and the fans? If the fans are controlled as well -- how? I thought the EFA was needed for that?
PWI SW controls EVA and Delta-T. Hence both heaters and fans.
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Ruediger:
Yes it is in the file repository meanwhile, but it is not listed on the web page. You have to know what you are looking for on the file share 😜
Seems pretty obvious to me:
This is the deep link to PWI’s resources and actually not meant for public use. The official way is the webpage. That is what I meant. 😎
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Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
I had to PM Ruediger for a copy of DHM (thanks again Ruediger), but I just found that Rouz had posted a link somewhere in the thread for an official download (in a basic page showing the download directory).
Yes, I share the same link in my response:
Index of /files/tools (planewave.com)
So, one would use DHM, PWI 3.5.x, and ASCOM Observing Conditions compatible data to control the heaters? Or both the heaters and the fans? If the fans are controlled as well -- how? I thought the EFA was needed for that?
PWI SW controls EVA and Delta-T. Hence both heaters and fans.
Gotcha, so without the EFA, one would need to power the fans separately from PWI and DHM, but DeltaT can be managed (reasonably, not perfectly) via the combo of PWI and DHM with the ASCOM Observing Conditions data.
With this in mind the last thing I will need to figure out is -- does running the fans at all times on the CDK14 cause any impact to imaging. If no, then I can have a script fire off from Voyager to power on the fans from the DLI Power Switch at a pre-defined time before imaging starts. If yes, I would just have Voyager fire off another script to turn off the fans after X amount of time, prior to starting imaging.
This would work as a rudimentary system that is better than nothing.
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What I have forgotten to mention based on my last update from PWI support which is a while ago:
DHM works only with PWI3.5 which cannot control Series 5 components. This is only possible with the 4.x branch. So DHM is not usable with Series 5 components.
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Ruediger:
What I have forgotten to mention based on my last update from PWI support which a while ago:
DHM works only with PWI3.5 which cannot control Series 5 components. This is only possible with the 4.x branch. So DHM is not usable with Series 5 components.
Oh, I got that from your previous post, so I am all good. I grabbed PWI 3.5.7 and DHM 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 just so I had both versions available.
I really wish they updated DHM with one simple configuration change to the software. If they added the ability to toggle fan control (ON vs OFF) via the PWI Software or via a user supplied script, then either a Powerbox or DLI Power Switch could be scripted to turn the fans on or off based on all of the logic DHM is evaluating from the ASCOM Observing conditions. Not a perfect solution but would at least get people something they could do without the EFA box interface (which is terrible design).
This change would not be hard either. Maybe someone can suggest this to them.
-Bill
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Both primary and ambient temperature also run through EFA. Ambient might be picked up from another source perhaps, but primary mirror temperature might be more of a challenge. So without EFA, the PWI/DHM solution seems missing relevant info? If I'm not mistaken for that reason Ruediger has kept his EFA in his setup?
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Willem Jan Drijfhout:
Both primary and ambient temperature also run through EFA. Ambient might be picked up from another source perhaps, but primary mirror temperature might be more of a challenge. So without EFA, the PWI/DHM solution seems missing relevant info? If I'm not mistaken for that reason Ruediger has kept his EFA in his setup?
The ambient temperature can be determined from the ASCOM Observing Conditions. I assumed DeltaT was able to determine the temperature of both mirror probes. Is this not the case?
Per the Plavewave Website about DeltaT
With Delta T you can:
- Have Full Control of Primary and Secondary Heater using PlaneWave Interface (PWI3) Software.
- Monitor current temperature of primary mirror, secondary mirror and surrounding ambient temperature.
- Automatically maintains mirror temperature set point as outside temperature changes.
- Displays real time graph of all temperature sensors.
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Negative. Secondary mirror temp reading goes via Delta-T, but primary mirror temperature reading goes via EFA. So with only the Delta-T, you would heat the primary a bit in the blind.
The text you quote, is that from the website? It is sort of half-true, that is the functionality that Delta-T provides. Or better said, without Delta-T, you will not be able to get that. But it assumes you have a full PW setup, including a Hedrick/IR90 focuser with EFA.
And yes, that means that if you use a different focuser and you want to read the temperature of the primary, you're looking at adding a $1,175 thermometer (or €1,775 in my region).
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Willem Jan Drijfhout:
Negative. Secondary mirror temp reading goes via Delta-T, but primary mirror temperature reading goes via EFA. So with only the Delta-T, you would heat the primary a bit in the blind.
The text you quote, is that from the website? It is sort of half-true, that is the functionality that Delta-T provides. Or better said, without Delta-T, you will not be able to get that. But it assumes you have a full PW setup, including a Hedrick/IR90 focuser with EFA.
And yes, that means that if you use a different focuser and you want to read the temperature of the primary, you're looking at adding a $1,175 thermometer (or €1,775 in my region).
Yes that's from their website. So if the primary sensor temp is unknown due to not having the EFA box, how does triggering Delta T turning on the primary heater work? Can DHM turn it on based on the secondary mirror temp sensor?
As an aside, whomever designed this must have been really drunk.
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I believe the Delta T can use 'backplate' temperature for that, a kind of proxy for ambient. Based on graphs that Ruediger published earlier, secondary seems highly variable, so not a good choice. Whichever temperature used (even with primary mirror measurements using EFA), none is ideal, as it does not take into account humidity and therefore dew point. That is where John Hayes's electronics comes into play to solve.
Otherwise (and that is how I plan to use it for now) it is a matter of turning on at a fixed %, and experiment with what setting works generally well under you local conditions.
It would be interesting to hear Rouz's latest experiences. I believe he even ran it (for a short while?) without a Delta-T at all, and just used UPB to control power to the heaters.
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Willem Jan Drijfhout:
I believe the Delta T can use 'backplate' temperature for that, a kind of proxy for ambient. Based on graphs that Ruediger published earlier, secondary seems highly variable, so not a good choice. Whichever temperature used (even with primary mirror measurements using EFA), none is ideal, as it does not take into account humidity and therefore dew point. That is where John Hayes's electronics comes into play to solve.
Otherwise (and that is how I plan to use it for now) it is a matter of turning on at a fixed %, and experiment with what setting works generally well under you local conditions.
It would be interesting to hear Rouz's latest experiences. I believe he even ran it (for a short while?) without a Delta-T at all, and just used UPB to control power to the heaters.
Yeah if I've learned anything here the solution @John Hayes designed is the best way to approach and solve this significant design flaw. I would be happy to pay for one, or build one from a set of instructions. 🙏
In lieu of that, I guess people without the EFA and only Delta T are using the backplate temp to trigger heating the primary for some random amount of time?
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Willem Jan Drijfhout:
I believe the Delta T can use 'backplate' temperature for that, a kind of proxy for ambient. Based on graphs that Ruediger published earlier, secondary seems highly variable, so not a good choice. Whichever temperature used (even with primary mirror measurements using EFA), none is ideal, as it does not take into account humidity and therefore dew point. That is where John Hayes's electronics comes into play to solve.
Otherwise (and that is how I plan to use it for now) it is a matter of turning on at a fixed %, and experiment with what setting works generally well under you local conditions.
It would be interesting to hear Rouz's latest experiences. I believe he even ran it (for a short while?) without a Delta-T at all, and just used UPB to control power to the heaters.
Yeah if I've learned anything here the solution @John Hayes designed is the best way to approach and solve this significant design flaw. I would be happy to pay for one, or build one from a set of instructions. 🙏
In lieu of that, I guess people without the EFA and only Delta T are using the backplate temp to trigger heating the primary for some random amount of time?
I just realized that I don't fully understand @John Hayes 's approach. Is the control logic the following?if TDPS<6C then
PassThrough (DeltaT)
else HeaterOff
If so, what is the ambient-secondary and ambient-backplate temperature difference set in the Delta T?
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Willem Jan Drijfhout:
Otherwise (and that is how I plan to use it for now) it is a matter of turning on at a fixed %, and experiment with what setting works generally well under you local conditions.
It would be interesting to hear Rouz's latest experiences. I believe he even ran it (for a short while?) without a Delta-T at all, and just used UPB to control power to the heaters.
From anecdotal evidence I heard from a 12.5" CDK user in Louisiana (with high humidity), Pegasus UPB worked well for him in controlling dew while the native Delta T failed.
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Hi Bill,
without the EFA you don't have any backplate temp. Anyway all the temperatures provided by the EFA -except primary mirror- are useless. What EFA calls "Ambient" is actually the air temp between mirror and backplate. This is no ambient temp at all.
In my opinion, the CDKs have all the required temp sensors. But what is missing is a humidity sensor to calculate the dew point and a reasonable single controller plus software to control everything.
The good the PWI optics are, the disastrous and screwed the dew control system is. Therefore I doubt the guys were simply drunk, because when you are drunk you get sober after some days (latest). At this point they should have trashed this completely weird and stupid concept.
Maybe someday they come up with a usable solution...maybe...
CS
RÜdiger
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Yuxuan:
From anecdotal evidence I heard from a 12.5" CDK user in Louisiana (with high humidity), Pegasus UPB worked well for him in controlling dew while the native Delta T failed.
Easy to explain: UPB works with dew point, whereas the Delta-T either overheats or kicks in far too late. Any solution (or work around) using a humidity sensor is superior to the native solution.
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Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
From anecdotal evidence I heard from a 12.5" CDK user in Louisiana (with high humidity), Pegasus UPB worked well for him in controlling dew while the native Delta T failed.
Easy to explain: UPB works with dew point, whereas the Delta-T either overheats or kicks in far too late. Any solution (or work around) using a humidity sensor is superior to the native solution.
Well the UPB never turns the heater back off. Just increases the intensity over time. So in this case it would definitely over heat.
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Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
From anecdotal evidence I heard from a 12.5" CDK user in Louisiana (with high humidity), Pegasus UPB worked well for him in controlling dew while the native Delta T failed.
Easy to explain: UPB works with dew point, whereas the Delta-T either overheats or kicks in far too late. Any solution (or work around) using a humidity sensor is superior to the native solution.
Well the UPB never turns the heater back off. Just increases the intensity over time. So in this case it would definitely over heat.
Actually it does. I have witnessed UPB turning off the heater when the dew point is far below ambient temperature (when humidity is low). Even with the heater on, there are radiative loss of heat from the mirrors and ambient temperature drop, so it doesn't always overheat.
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Yuxuan:
Willem Jan Drijfhout:
I believe the Delta T can use 'backplate' temperature for that, a kind of proxy for ambient. Based on graphs that Ruediger published earlier, secondary seems highly variable, so not a good choice. Whichever temperature used (even with primary mirror measurements using EFA), none is ideal, as it does not take into account humidity and therefore dew point. That is where John Hayes's electronics comes into play to solve.
Otherwise (and that is how I plan to use it for now) it is a matter of turning on at a fixed %, and experiment with what setting works generally well under you local conditions.
It would be interesting to hear Rouz's latest experiences. I believe he even ran it (for a short while?) without a Delta-T at all, and just used UPB to control power to the heaters.
Yeah if I've learned anything here the solution @John Hayes designed is the best way to approach and solve this significant design flaw. I would be happy to pay for one, or build one from a set of instructions. 🙏
In lieu of that, I guess people without the EFA and only Delta T are using the backplate temp to trigger heating the primary for some random amount of time?
I just realized that I don't fully understand @John Hayes 's approach. Is the control logic the following?if TDPS<6C then
PassThrough (DeltaT)
else HeaterOff
If so, what is the ambient-secondary and ambient-backplate temperature difference set in the Delta T?
John will need to chime in on the logic for this device.
This is definitely a major problem. I'd hate to drop another $1200 on this system just to get temperature data and a functional control system, but moving this from the Seattle area to New Mexico isn't a small project and endeavor so I may have no other choice. None of the work-arounds (except for the fans) sounds like they will yield consistent enough results for a completely remote system in another climate than mine here.
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Ruediger:
Yuxuan:
From anecdotal evidence I heard from a 12.5" CDK user in Louisiana (with high humidity), Pegasus UPB worked well for him in controlling dew while the native Delta T failed.
Easy to explain: UPB works with dew point, whereas the Delta-T either overheats or kicks in far too late. Any solution (or work around) using a humidity sensor is superior to the native solution.
PWI3 lets DeltaT heat the primary backplate to a certain temperature above ambient, but it's not the backplate that dews... (insert facepalm emoji here). However this shortcoming seems to have been addressed in DWM, which allows one to keep the primary mirror temperature to a certain amount above ambient.
On the AGO iDK, the control logic is to heat the (edge of the) primary mirror to a certain temperature above ambient. Even without measuring humidity the heater works well for me in humid Florida.
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11.02
18.84
5.01
4.29
