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John Hayes:Rouz Astro: * John, Interesting you worked the math out. Hands on experience showed pointing at higher up targets leads to more radiative heat loss (even with the shroud) and lower targets suffered less loss. Dew shield/shroud is better than nothing in all cases, mine is always on. Rouz |
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John Hayes:Rouz Astro: *With my DeltaT dead I was contemplating trying the Celestron unit, it has probes for each output so it can control each heater separately. The software does seems a bit rudimentary though, I'm not sure how much heat the "Auto" will put out as its probably calibrated for the SCT heaters mostly. It doesn't seem like you can alter the auto output but I could be wrong. Also, PW don't seem to like to disclose the wiring diagrams for the sensors and CDK wiring, otherwise perhaps 3rd party compatibility would have been easier. Rouz |
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Rouz Astro: Having burnt two Delta-T's, that's bad news...😞. The UPB should have plenty of juice to power the Delta-T, strange... In this video of the Series 5 controller, Matt specifically mentions to never hot-plug the controller. Always switch off the controller, turn on power and then switch on the controller. Could that have something to do with it? Using the UPB, you would probably hot-plug the Delta-T? That would be awesome, to manage both the heaters and the fans from the UPB! And it would make perfect sense too. And yes, the Auto-Dew option is using dew point, rather than ambient temperature. Instead of setting a delta-temperature though, there is an aggressiveness setting. That will require a bit of testing probably to get to the right settings. Problem with this remains the proprietary cables. From Delta-T to OTA, it is regular RCA, but for secondary there is a proprietary OTA-out to secondary required and that only comes with the Delta-T. For the fans something similar. You mention that for your scope it came with the CDK14, but my local dealer says it is not included (anymore?). Let's see, perhaps 'on special request' they can do something. |
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Willem Jan Drijfhout: No, reason is basically that the standard 12V plugs can produce shortcuts when plugin in/out. The commonly used plugs are generally not hot hot plug able. This applies to all gadgets using these e.g. camera, EFW, controller.... I also toasted one Delta. I have contacted Pegasus Astro also, since the UPB shows a flash icon indicating a short cut, when the power on a Delta gets switched off (not on!). They are aware off and said they had multiple cases. It looks like, that PWI does some very strange things concerning electronics. |
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Ruediger: Ai, that's yet another minus for PWI electronics, indeed. If you say power on a Delta gets switched off, do you mean using the power switch on the Delta itself? In other words, if you would keep the Delta switch on at all times, and turn on/off through the UPB, would that prevent the toasting? |
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Willem Jan Drijfhout:Ruediger: No. When you switch the power port on the UPB to "off", the red flash pops up in the UPB software. This usually indicates a short cut or a polar swap. PA just said: Ignore it! That's what I do since, but this indicates, that PWI is doing some really weird stuff. The replacement Delta woks as expected. No problems during the last 1,5 years, |
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Rouz Astro: Your experience is spot on but it’s because the sky temperature varies with zenith angle. It is the coldest when you point straight up. John |
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Ruediger:Willem Jan Drijfhout: *I had the same issue. The flash icon would show up with the power of off not on. The second DeltaT worked for some 6 months. |
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| Just called PW to confirm, the Series 5 does control the heaters so you don't need the DeltaT with that. Makes more sense than the previous 2k 2 box combo. |
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I also talked to Planewave, here is their reply:The newer Series 5 controller for our Delta Rho does provide both functions of the EFA and Delta T heater, while there are plans to adapt this and the new focuser and rotator to the larger CDK telescopes I don’t believe that has been considered for the CDK12.5 due to lack of demand based on the higher costs. The connectors used differ so while it could be potentially adapted there haven’t been any requests for this. Their last sentence seems to imply that the Series 5 control box can be adapted to all CDK scopes. |
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This sounds promising! While the Series 5 controller is extremely expensive for what it is, it is still cheaper than Delta-T and EFA combined.. The connectors used differ so while it could be potentially adapted there haven’t been any requests for this. Perhaps they could read this thread, which reads like one big request for a proper controller solution. Not sure whether a 24V device counts as ‘proper’ though… |
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Willem Jan Drijfhout This all reminds me of the old days with RCOS where some of the decisions they made were amazing and others were so bad you have to wonder if the two parts of the design were done at different places and by people of totally disparate abilities. I have both an older 10 inch AGO and a newer (October) 14 inch CDK. The latter is at a remote site with commonly high humidity so the issue is relevant to me. I have the Delta T but not the focus controller since I have a Nightcrawler for the focuser. It is a small site but has a very large percentage of Planewave mounts and scopes. I was as floored as everyone else at the concept of part of the thermal system being bundled with the focuser. It is like buying a car and having to buy upgraded tires in order to get a better sound system. I just wish they would combine the optics of the Planewave with the thermal control of the AGO. Which leads me to the question of whether one could buy all the components of the AGO system from AGO and install them (albeit with some disassembly) on a similarly sized CDK? Or maybe PW could fix the problem easily if Dave Tandy is going to stop building scopes - just buy his system and software and use that..... On the subject of burnout of the Delta T on power cycle, I have a UPB but after reading about that I elected to run a separate cable from a separate power supply to the Delta T so it can be switched directly from my web switch. Easily done because space to run cables is one of the things PW got right on the mounts (it is on a 350). A separate power supply might not help but at least eliminates the ability of Planewave to blame the Pegasus. So right now I am just running the fans on full from the UPB with the provided cable plus one I made up and running the heaters in various modes depending on the night and time. One thing that does help is one can use the PW plugin if you are using NINA and have it change heater modes all by itself. Not ideal but better than nothing. Another subject, why is PW not using PWM fans? It is not like they are hard to come by or expensive?!  |
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Congratulations on your new CDK, Bill! Very glad to hear of another user that went the ‘non-EFA route’. I have just placed the order for a CDK14 (probably spring delivery…) and have ordered it with the Gemini focuser/rotator. Delta T, no EFA and fans controlled via UPB, so very similar to your setup. Would be great if you could share your experiences after a few months of use. |
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Bill McLaughlin:Willem Jan Drijfhout *Some good points there. After my DeltaT got fried with the UBP, I now run a separate cable with the Suppled power adapter. Working fine for a month now (lets see). I use the Gemini as well so no EFA for me. Note: There was an added software - Dew Management Controller that would read the UPB RH and adjust power based on humidity. That doesn't work unless you have the EFA. I use the DeltaT to control the backplate not EFA, the Dew mngt. software needs the EFA primary temp to operate. DeltaT works, but it would be much better if it would be able to use RH to lower the heat when not required. I tried PWM on the fans, they don't move at add (might get fried). I agree, why not use PWM fans and was thinking of opening the CDK14 at some point and swapping out fans. Looking inside the backplate, there must be 20 pairs of wires in there. I did notice a shift in focus point with fans on vs off. Not sure why, PW say its the boundary later, I suspect its the differential air pressure under the mirror. There is very little space for the air to escape around the sides and the pressure might be building up in there. Given the large surface area, its plausable that it forces the mirror up by a tiny amount. Also, I have been curious about adding side fans to the CDK14. All the new open truss scopes including the similarly sized DR350 have side fans to clean the boundary layer. PW said the CDK14's deflector and air flow is enough to remove the boundary layer. CS Rouz |
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Willem Jan Drijfhout: *Willem the Gemini is performing very well. I have been working with Optec (as a dealer) and with the use of a number of modifications and custom adapters allows the CDK to use an OAG with the reducer. We will have 3 more users with the Gemini - OAG - Reducer once all the parts arrive and are assembled. CS Rouz |
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Another thing I found out is that controlling the Delta T with USB was flaky and unreliable. USB is what one of the reps said to use so I tried that first. It would not connect reliably and would not display data reliably. It was nearly useless. Fortunately I had managed to save the instructions for using a 6P6C to serial connector and a 6C "telephone cable" (those instructions have now vanished from their downloads, as far as I can tell) and I brought down a 6 conductor cable and BNIB serial adapter kit that I bought years ago (again for the RCOS since they used that) so switched over to that. Suddenly it connected and ran flawlessly. Fortunately I am using a home built desktop to run my system and there was a serial header on the Mobo so that and $5 got me a native serial port. Sometimes that old serial connection is just better!  First complete image was an oddball as objects go - more are in the works but this one was ready first due to the bright star and consequent short exposures.. Click on the first image on the left (the other images are from the refractor on the same L-350) https://gallery.jalbum.net/en/browse/user/album/2060840 |
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Found this thread while working on design to run a CDK14 remotely in New Mexico. What a nightmare they made the dew and fan system. Since most of this discussion was about 3+ months ago my first question is - has any of this changed or improved over time? I'm having reservations about using Delta T as well as some reservations about using the UPBv2. While I'm not an optical or electrical engineer at all, I've done my share of Systems Design for SaaS services and neither of these seem to have a good track record of success needed to run flawlessly from thousands of miles away. @John Hayes the Arduino control system you showed is interesting. I don't suppose you have this open sourced for others to adopt? Others talked about adaptation of the new Celestron control system. How feasible is this as a solution? At a minimum I could run power to the fans via the IP Power Switch, and run power to the Delta T from the IP Power Switch as well. This would eliminate the strange issue reported by UPBv2 users. I was planning on using a NiteCrawler focuser, but the Optec may be more appealing. I already plan to guide with the Sagitta OAG with motor. This thread has me pondering that. For those not using the UPBv2, how are you distributing power and USB? Perhaps everything runs on the IP switch for power, and through an industrial hub for USB? There was talk about the Series 5 Controller: https://planewave.com/product/series-5-controller/ Does this control both the fans and the dew heaters on the CDK14? If so does it make sense to migrate to this over the Delta T box or is that box still needed in addition to this one? Bill |
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Hi Bill, as far as I know, nothing has changed. I am still working with Dew Manager, EFA/Delta-T and Gemini. After a couple of months I can clearly state that the Gemini was the right choice. Works like charm. Not a single failure since. The Series 5 controller replaces EFA and Delta-T. Keep in mind, that series 5 has a number of serious drawbacks: - It uses 24V. You have to add another wiring up to the mount and tube. - Price. It is very expensive. For the pride of a series 5 focuser you will get a focuser/rotator combo. - Availability is a problem. The few units available are delivered with the Delta Ro first. - Weight. Series 5 focuser/rotator are very heavy. An open point which I have not seen addressed: the Hedrick -and I guess series 5 too- has no thermal compensation, whereas the Gemini has it. I have to admit, it is actually not required, but just to mention. CS Rüdiger |
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About the series-5 controller, currently it only works with series-5 focuser/rotator on the Delta Rho, but PW has hinted to me that it may be adapted for CDK14 and up with Hedrick focusers. I think in order for them to come to their senses customer demand is key. Right now they insist that the current EFA+DT combo works well for many of their scopes up to 1m ones deployed around the world. I doubt it in very humid climates, but I tend to agree with them for a setup in, for example, New Mexico. |
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Ruediger: Thanks Rüdiger! This is really helpful. The series 5 controller itself, is $1000. I do not plan to use the series 5 focuser and rotator combo, just the controller if it will work better than the solution in place today. So in this case I would buy the Series 5 controller, sell my un-used Delta-T controller, and hook up the series 5 controller. My AP1100 mount has ample room for routing cables through the mount, so getting the 24V power to the box would not be a problem. I do not use temperature compensation with any of my focusers, even though most support it. It just does not seem to work very well. |
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Yuxuan: Thanks Yuxuan. My scope will be in New Mexico. Sounds like I may just need to plan on using Delta-T for now (with its own power through the mount to the IP Power Switch) and run the fans directly from the power switch as well. |
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Yuxuan: That’s what they had told me too - until I have proven by evidence that it cannot work under some conditions. After that they admitted they never tested it under less optimal conditions. I gave up on that point. DHM works for me now, but the basic concept fails by design. CS Rüdiger |
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Ruediger:Yuxuan: What is DHM? I saw this mentioned before, is this a new software solution that helps make Delta-T more useful? |
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Ruediger:Yuxuan: After more than a year back and forth, PWI accepted that it does not work in my climate conditions and a lake of water in the tube. They have provided (as work around) an additional piece of software which can evaluate an ASCOM humidities sensor and controls fans and heaters based on the dew point instead of temperature only. This was never officially published, since „everything works so great“ 🤪 Only with DHM (Dew Heater Manager) I can run the CDK in my climate conditions, which is actually quite average. |
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The series 5 controller itself, is $1000. I do not plan to use the series 5 focuser and rotator combo, just the controller if it will work better than the solution in place today. So in this case I would buy the Series 5 controller, sell my un-used Delta-T controller, and hook up the series 5 controller. My AP1100 mount has ample room for routing cables through the mount, so getting the 24V power to the box would not be a problem. If there would be a time at which the Series 5 controller could replace a Delta-T for the CDK14+ models, it would be interesting to see if that would work with a non-proprietary focuser (e.g. Gemini). The impression I have is that PW's focus is on solutions that assume all PW parts (e.g. Hedrick or IR90 focusers etc). I am in the same boat as you (although not remote). I've purchased the CDK14 with Gemini focuser. I plan to run heaters through Delta-T and fans through UPB and like you will keep fingers crossed that the series 5 controller can ultimately provide full humidity control and replace the Delta-T. |
