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AdrianC.: I don't think there is a need to cast aspersions on the judges. From what I can see, they are all accomplished members of the community. Since this is a fairly small community (compared to the photographic community at large), it isn't reasonable to try to get professional reviewers. With that said, an improvement would certainly be to remove from the judges the ability to see who took the image. I suspect this feature is there purely in a well founded attempt to get the images to be more diverse (include in iOTD winners people from different countries, underrepresented groups etc.) An unfortunate side effect of this is claims of bias which are impossible to prove but also impossible to disprove. I have made my point about the problems with the contest, no point in rehashing those. I guess I'll leave with one thought. To those who say "I Only want to take the best images I can take" - well in almost all cases (with maybe one or two exceptions), that included making massive investments of money. If you thought that you could continue to make top quality images from Bortle 8 locations, why bother? To be clear - I have ZERO problems with people doing this, and at some point, if I continue in this hobby, I will too. I also have ZERO problems with these images being recognized at the highest levels - that is what those levels are for. But to not acknowledge those real differences, and suggest that those bringing them up are doing so from envy is not based on fact. |
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AdrianC.: The worlds biggest photo contest (CEWE) with 500,000 entries and $250,000 in prize money has like 7 photographers and a couple corporate executives as the Jury. Give me a break... |
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Woooow just WOOOOW! The inconsiderate and outright rudeness in this thread! 1st, I want to applaud @Salvatore Iovene for everything he does here on AB! From starting this site to writing the code and all the administrative tasks he needs to do. I also give him a HUGE credit for taking all the abuse that he has taken in this thread! I for one truly appreciate his time and dedication he has put into this wonderful site! 2nd, I agree with many here and think that @Jeffbax Velocicaptor hit the nail on the head! Spot on Jeff! While I’m not a professional AP’er I do appreciate all the time and effort that “EVERYONE” that posts an image to their profile whether it’s an IOTD or not! My images are not the best thats for sure and I don’t submit every image I produce just the ones I think are good in my eyes to maybe get a TPN and if I do great if not thats ok as well. I use it for myself to see if I’m getting better at processing as well as the artistic/framing of my work. I’d be ecstatic if I ever am lucky enough to get an IOTD. NOTHING IS PERFECT IN LIFE, NOTHING! If people don’t like what is happening with the whole IOTD process then don’t submit your images or go elsewhere for the recognition your looking for. I know that I’ll get some blowback for this post but I don’t care and quite honestly will not reply. This is only my personal view to this subject. Keep up the great work @Salvatore Iovene and Cuddo’s to your AB team! FULL DISCLOSURE: I’M NOT PART OF AB’S TEAM. |
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I am surprised by how much time I spent reading some of this. I still like my idea from some months ago: incorporate a separate (or part of) mechanism where as the reviewers go through images they can just mark it as "good" or something. If you get enough "goods" then you get some form of recognition via a badge. It doesn't add significantly to the workload of reviewers since they're looking at the pictures anyway so it's just an extra click. And it preserves the existing process as well. So all it would do is add another opportunity for an image to be recognized without adding any real work. I stopped adding to the IOTD because I don't see the point. For example, I've seen some M13 TP and such that weren't any better (IMO) than mine but cropped differently. I choose to preserve the original field of view rather than cropping to highlight the object. Personal choice of mine but I fancy that reviewers are not fans of that approach. I don't expect that I'll ever get any recognition here so I just use the site as a nice place to put my work and to point people to if it comes up. The value of the site isn't in the likes and IOTD, even though those are appreciated, but in other aspects. |
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Arun H: Since it appears that you are calling me out directly here, I'll answer directly. I am still making images from my Bortle 8 back yard with lower-end gear and will continue to do so. And I have invested considerable money in three remote scopes--money I earned over the course of a 50+ year career that involved considerable hardship and sacrifice--some of that dealing with employees who had complaints on a level not unlike the complaints I see in this thread (e.g., "Why did Joe get promoted? I've been here longer," "I don't like the free donuts we got today," "Jim is using my favorite company-owned coffee mug," "Bob is a terrible boss. He expects me to finish this code by tomorrow," "I won't get vaccinated or wear a mask because I refuse to live in fear," and the like). It's wearying. I originally wanted to put those three remote scopes in the back yard, but with an aging back, I would need to house them there permanently somehow. I had an architect draw up plans for a roll-off-roof observatory. The total cost of building her design was going to be about $40k. Not cheap, but doable. Then the HOA got involved. To get approved, it would have to have a stucco exterior, two wood-framed windows, be plumbed for a kitchen and bathroom, have a roof and other finishes similar to my house, and generally be fully compliant with residential building codes. That pushed the cost to $250,000. I could put that $250k in a low-rate CD and it would almost pay the rent at Deep Sky West. There's no question that the quality of broadband data I get at DSW is superior to what I get at home. No way I could get the M81-M82 IFN from here. But for narrowband, it's not that different. To match the narrowband results I get under a dark sky, I maybe (or maybe not) just need about 30-50% more integration time and be very mindful of when and how I capture O3 data. It's even quite possible to do a passable job at some broadband targets. Not easy, but doable. I'm not at all ashamed of this effort on M51 taken with a C11 at home, and I therefore have no plans to shoot it again any time in the next few years. Whatever issues that or any of my other images have are my fault, not the fault of the gear or the sky. As Steeve pointed out, concentrate on what you can get from where you are with the gear you have. I didn't want to go remote. It. Is. A. Pain. In. The. Ass. It requires a level of expense, risk, and commitment far beyond anything I was doing at home. I have to get on a plane Thursday morning to go out there and deal with a poorly designed cable harness that I rushed into use on one scope, replace the mounted filters with unmounted ones on another scope because of unforeseen reflection issues, and solve a power issue on the third. I certainly didn't go remote to get effing badges on Astrobin. I did, however, want to expand my range of focal lengths, so that's why I got three rigs. And of course I wanted the best optics I could get in those focal ranges. I guess some people wouldn't be happy unless I was shooting with emulsion plates and a magnifying glass with this guy doing manual guiding for me. As I think I mentioned, I believe Salvatore is working on a feature for users or communities to create custom contests. I have no objection to that whatsoever. Maybe it will enhance people's ability to get more feedback on what they're doing and ways to improve. But for all the many, many reasons already hammered to death here, diluting IOTD is not the solution to this issue. So there you have some of my reasons for doing what I'm doing, none of which are anyone's business, frankly, and little of it lines up with your assumptions. |
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Timothy Martin: This is the key point. Having a separate narrowband category levels the playing field so that those who (for whatever reason) cannot go remote. And it can be done without diluting quality expectations. Today, with good cheaper filters and good cheaper mounts, many more people can compete. How many more people are there, like Steve, who can be recognized without diluting quality expectations and without them having to spend considerable amounts of money? This is not about "participation trophies", which I am not interested in either. This is about recognizing that imaging is done in many different ways that a good community should recognize. Narrowband then, will not have to compete with the truly exceptional broadband images that are only possible from dark sites. The final IOTD would still be one award for the most exceptional images as it is done today. So there you have some of my reasons for doing what I'm doing, none of which are anyone's business, frankly, and little of it lines up with your assumptions. I have repeatedly stated that it is entirely within your rights to go remote and indeed, doing so improves the quality of images that amateurs can take. This takes money, and that is unavoidable, and I also recognize that. I have also, in other forums, made it clear that this should be respected because, other than just the cost, it takes effort. That also should be respected. But, in the context of a single site wide contest, it does create an imbalance. Some of this imbalance is unavoidable. There is always going to be a barrier to entry - this doesn't come cheap even if you do not go remote. But I believe that if simple steps can be taken to address this imbalance without sacrificing quality, I believe we should explore that. Edit: You've mentioned that people are "complaining" and it is wearying. It is also pretty wearying when real issues are pointed out, even acknowledged, solutions offered, but then those making the suggestions for improvement are told to basically just suck it up. That's not how improvements are made. |
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Arun H: I think a big problem with the internet forums is that emotions escalate very quickly, and then it becomes difficult to have a constructive conversation. I have been careful to address all of my comments and criticism towards the process of IOTD and not towards those who are volunteering their time to make it happen. I genuinely believe that submitters, reviewers and judges are performing their duties with the best intentions and integrity. I just think that the system has flaws that are worth discussing. If this upsets people that is unfortunate. Hopefully my contributions to this discussion are helpful for the evolution of this process. At the beginning I said I will probably regret participating in this discussion, and I do. It's always a bummer when things get out of hand, because I do think there is a lot of value of having such conversations and that value is lost when folks take it to a personal level. The Abin IOTD is not something critical to my existence... but it is a part of the hobby I enjoy so much and the community in which I participate. I received an IOTD last year, and was very proud of it. That doesn't mean that the process couldn't use improvement, whatever that might look like. It's impossible to please everyone, but that doesn't mean that those people should just go somewhere else. We can still participate even if we are not happy about certain elements of it and are at the same time vocal to initiate change. Emotions, and stances don't need to be binary here... And people on both sides of any discussion or debate should be respectful. |
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Timothy Martin: Don't worry! I think I know how to fix these problems! Why did Joe get promoted? I've been here longer. Because Joe is a spy; call the FBI I don't like the free donuts we got today You get what you pay for Jim is using my favorite company-owned coffee mug He lost his mind; tell him to take a break from his work Bob is a terrible boss. He expects me to finish this code by tommorow Say to Expectant Bob to either lower his expectations or finish the code himself I wont get vaccinated or wear a mask because I refuse to live in fear You still fear the mask |
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Arun H: Constructive suggestions are one thing. "Solutions offered" also have to include a recognition that the offered solutions may not work. And any real attempt at a solution may not exactly meet your expectations. For the third time, it looks like you're ultimately going to get the contests you want. Continuing to complain about this in the face of a solution you've asked for is not reasonable. Yes, it is wearying. |
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Timothy Martin: I am sorry you feel that way, Tim. Whether or not such solutions will work is a matter for the community to debate. That you disagree with a solution I propose is not a reason for me to not propose it. There are plenty of people who see various problems with the IOTD process; we, as members of the community, will vocalize these issues as is our right. I will continue to do it in a respectful fashion as I believe I have here, but I will not be silenced simply because you disagree with me. Like Chris, I have consistently defended the work of the people on the IOTD staff itself, and spoken out in defense of the judges when people questioned their work. I have also defended the right that you and others have to take the images you want in the manner you wish to take them and have commended the efforts and the work of those, like @Jeffbax Velocicaptor that have advanced the art. |
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Dale Penkala: This is an art forum, artists have a temper some times  .You won't see this in a photometry or spectroscopy forum, they don't give awards like "light curve of the day" and then argue which light curve is prettier and why. |
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My suggestion for Astrobin is to mandate Judges to provide feedback on all images they view. So, if they reject an image at any point of the process, they provide a one or two sentence feedback, such as . . . "a strong image but I found the sharpening to be a little over done". Likewise, if the push an image along, then why . . .""I am really impressed by the framing you chose for this target. A unique perspective". This would be so beneficial for everyone on Astrobin! |
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My suggestion for Astrobin is to mandate Judges to provide feedback on all images they view. So, if they reject an image at any point along the process, they provide a one or two sentence feedback, such as . . . "a strong image but I found the sharpening to be a little over done". Likewise, if a judge pushes an image along, then why . . .""I am really impressed by the framing you chose for this target. A unique perspective". And please don't give the lame excuse this would be too time-consuming. Writing one or two sentences would take less time than they take to view the image in the first place. Moreover, this would be so beneficial for everyone on Astrobin! I for sure am in dire need of constructive criticism. I am convincing my M51 image blew away the last IOTD winner (on the same target), yet not one judge nominated my image. I would love to know why. Not only will this make us all better astrophotographers, but it would also provide an insight into the judges' thoughts. the entire process would become more transparent, and therefore more legitimate. As a result, we would undoubtedly see a lot less complaining about how "unfair" the IOTD process is. |
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Tommy Mastro: I'm going to immediately give you the "lame excuse" that this would be far too time-consuming, burdensome, and create all kinds of disagreements, complaints, and hard feelings. It's pretty rare in any judged competition that you get feedback as to why you didn't progress. My suggestion would be to spend a couple of years volunteering as a Submitter and see whether you still feel that you could write one or two sentences for each of the 50 to 100 images that come across your plate each and every day. This has been discussed before among the staff, who are just unpaid volunteers, and rejected soundly. We all have lives to live outside Astrobin. If you don't want to be a Submitter, you can still try this approach on for size. Just try going through about half the images that appear on the main wall every day and write a one or two sentence comment to the photographer about what you liked or didn't like about his or her image. Keep in mind that you can only write positive comments about 6 of the images. The rest must get negative comments. I would wager that you wouldn't do it more than a very few times before you realized that it was time-consuming, burdensome, and created all kinds of disagreements, complaints, and hard feelings with those on whose images you comment. In any case, for me, it doesn't work like that at all. I don't reject images because of flaws. I promote images because of excellence. I can find positive and negative things about both. It's not one, two, three, or more things that pushes an image along the track for me. It's the totality of it. |
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| Incidentally, just doing the math, if you see an average of 75 images a day and write 1.5 sentences for each image 365 days a year for two years with an average of 5 words per sentence, you will have written enough words to compose a four-volume legal treatise on American administrative law that could win you accolades from The Green Bag and the American Law Institute and forever solidify you as the world's foremost scholar on subjects such as Chevron Deference and the Parker Doctrine. |
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Timothy Martin: Your response is “reductio ad absurdum” and very predictable. If you have time to view each image, you have time to type two sentences. |
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| Case in point, you just wrote well over a dozen sentences (most of which were run-on sentences), to argue the point that you don’t have enough time to write two short sentences. |
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Tommy Mastro: Case in point: I wrote several paragraphs in response to a single post that proposed something that, in this environment, is unrealistic and unworkable. If you sent me a single image (or link to an image) in a private message and asked for my honest feedback about it, I would do the best I could possibly do to provide that and help you out. I mean it. But if you sent me 75 images a day and just wanted one or two sentences for each of them, I couldn't, and wouldn't, do it. Again, I suggest that you try this out. The vehicle is there for you to do it even without becoming a Submitter. See if it really works. |
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Tommy Mastro: What makes the process legitimate is knowing that your image got fair consideration, that is to say you know that it was looked at. This already exists on the Submitter level and judging by the response in this thread, its greatly desired at the Reviewer level as well. Also, how can this not be a recipe for drama? It is like when you text someone after a date that it is not going to work out. Letting them know that is fine, but if they ask for reasons and you give them some, then you just opened the door for an argument. You gave them a point of contention that didn't exist before. I know this hobby skews towards the older crowd but hopefully this example still makes sense! Even if you think that you would never start an argument based off being told your image sucks and was rejected, I think this thread shows how a lot of people are ready for a proper scrap. I don't need to be arguing with like 30 people because I told them their image was clipped too much in the blacks, or they had walking noise, or they bungled the DBE, or.... Supposing this was anonymous feedback, I guarantee you they will either start e-mailing Salvatore en-masse, or start hunting down volunteers and sending angry PM's. Failing that, they might start threads like this. |
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I can see how providing feedback for every image submitted would get a bit tedious. I enjoy comments on my images, and try to reciprocate but after posting a half dozen comments I need to take a break or I just start posting impersonal messages. I couldnt imagine doing that 50+ times a day. I certainly wouldnt volunteer for that. There is a forum here for image critique though, if you are seeking feedback and are not getting it when you just share an image: https://www.astrobin.com/forum/c/astrophotography/critique-requests/ On another note, it feels like the IOTD staff is not interested in feedback of any kind. Even this last poster who had some ideas was met with defensiveness and sarcasm... no doubt eliciting an escalating response of “reductio ad absurdum” and the additional quips back and forth. Why does it have to be like this? This has become an an "us vs them" yet most of the contributors of feedback on this thread have been polite and constructive. This thread is so toxic, it might be a good idea to lock it. There is nothing constructive coming out of it and certainly not much civil conversation anymore. |
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory: I've lost count of how many things I've added/changed to AstroBin in direct response to user feedback. Unfortunately not every idea is good or feasible. I think you should move on from thinking that if your specific ideas are not implemented, this means that no ideas are listened to or implemented. I appreciate all feedback, and even this thread has been useful to me, but there are reasons why certain things are the way they are, and I've explained them many times, including in the IOTD/TP FAQ. |
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Salvatore Iovene:Chris White- Overcast Observatory: Sal, Is that genuinely what you think here? That I personally am not moving on because my ideas are not implemented? I said my piece a while back and followed up on it a couple of times but left it at that many posts ago. Where have I said anywhere... anything that suggests that I dont believe my feedback is considered? Your reaction to me is so strange... I just posted about civility and how this thread has lost it and your response to me is about a belief you have that "I think you should move on from thinking that if your specific ideas are not implemented, this means that no ideas are listened to or implemented." I dont see the connection. I have not engaged with you or the community in a way that suggests I cannot move on. I feel like I am taking crazy pills here... In any event. I will do as you suggest and move on. Thank you. |
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Hi Chris, you have moved some suggestions (which I appreciate). They (and other suggestions from other usersin this thread) are not going to be implemented, because of reasons that I or others have explained, or are explained in the FAQ. If you say that it feels like the IOTD/TP staff is not interested in feedback, I feel compelled to specify that this is not the case. In general I (and the IOTD/TP team by extensions) am interested in feedback, but I cannot implement every piece of feedback. Where have I said anywhere... anything that suggests that I dont believe my feedback is considered? To me it seems like "it feels like the IOTD staff is not interested in feedback of any kind" means just that. I might be wrong, but that's how I read it 🤷♂️ |
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Salvatore Iovene: Oh! I can see how you would take it that way. Thanks for clarifying and qualifying your response. My comment was specifically about the situation where the last poster who suggested mandatory written image feedback was met with sarcasm.... in the context of how this thread has devolved. I think it would have been a more polite exchange had this thread not keyed everyone up. It was not a general comment about IOTD in general, just how this thread has become an impossible space to have a civil conversation. Sorry for the confusion. |
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| Similarly, my suggestion of having a category at lower levels without diluting the quality of the IOTD was met with a claim of not being constructive - despite exchanges earlier in the thread where Sal basically admitted it could be done. It could be debated, put to the general community for consideration - but it will not be done. Because, by my count, 15 or so people (based on the number of likes on some of these posts) passionately want to protect what they see as working for them. So, I will move on. Because truly, there are more important things in life than other people's opinions of your images, especially people you've not met. What is disappointing about this lack of healthy debate is how much it is undermining this community. Not addressing these issues will make the IOTD basically a rich retired person's contest - when there are practical ways to make it more inclusive but there is a lack of will to do so. |
