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The main downside to the DSD panel is that there is no way to have a dew shield (off the shelf) I don't think. How do you plan to address this?
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Bill McLaughlin:
Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
On a dark night with the roof closed darks without a shutter are just fine. Obviously a cover would be useful, but your SII filter in front of the chip should be plenty good enough.
Clearly the best solution would be a shutter camera like the Moravian but back focus precludes that with the Epsilons so there are two options I have used instead (although I have a Moravian on my other scope).
On my refractor, I made a custom bracket for a flip flat (the wooden one in the photo is temporary, it is now a CNC aluminum version) and then attached a black 1/16 inch think Finnish birch aircraft plywood painted flat black and held to the flat panel with magnets. This along with a black felt edge for the refractor dew cap seals 99% of the light out. You just have to have the operator remove the ply from the magnets for flats but that is a trivial 10 second job. These days this removeable black panel could be easily 3-D printed, of course.
Then there is the Deep Sky Dad flat device that is basically a commercial version that an has a built in tight fit. I have one on order for my E-130D but the lead time is about a month so do not have it yet - they make them for 160s and 180s as well.
DSD Flat Panel
The upcoming QSI cameras will fit the Epsilon with an OAG and they have their own shutter. Definitely keeping an eye on the developments with those!
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Bill McLaughlin:
Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
On a dark night with the roof closed darks without a shutter are just fine. Obviously a cover would be useful, but your SII filter in front of the chip should be plenty good enough.
Clearly the best solution would be a shutter camera like the Moravian but back focus precludes that with the Epsilons so there are two options I have used instead (although I have a Moravian on my other scope).
On my refractor, I made a custom bracket for a flip flat (the wooden one in the photo is temporary, it is now a CNC aluminum version) and then attached a black 1/16 inch think Finnish birch aircraft plywood painted flat black and held to the flat panel with magnets. This along with a black felt edge for the refractor dew cap seals 99% of the light out. You just have to have the operator remove the ply from the magnets for flats but that is a trivial 10 second job. These days this removeable black panel could be easily 3-D printed, of course.
Then there is the Deep Sky Dad flat device that is basically a commercial version that an has a built in tight fit. I have one on order for my E-130D but the lead time is about a month so do not have it yet - they make them for 160s and 180s as well.
DSD Flat Panel
The upcoming QSI cameras will fit the Epsilon with an OAG and they have their own shutter. Definitely keeping an eye on the developments with those!
Looked at the specs and did not see a shutter mentioned. Where did you see that?
I do like the QSI cameras (at least the older ones). I had a 6120, which although a CCD, was a Sony and had a QE that was better than the OnSemi/Kodak sensors.
OTOH, the drivers were just plain flaky.
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| @Chris White- Overcast Observatory to your earlier question, I would be interested in this device. I already have a regular Photon Cage on my E-160ED, it is 95% there but I think I would touch it more if I had a repeatable and precise system other than my hands; this would add to the value of such a device btw. This plus the upcoming Optec rotator make the Epsilon almost fully remote ready. As you say, the flat panel / cover is the thing missing (hint, hint!)
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@Chris White- Overcast Observatory to your earlier question, I would be interested in this device. I already have a regular Photon Cage on my E-160ED, it is 95% there but I think I would touch it more if I had a repeatable and precise system other than my hands; this would add to the value of such a device btw. This plus the upcoming Optec rotator make the Epsilon almost fully remote ready. As you say, the flat panel / cover is the thing missing (hint, hint!)
LOL. Yes, I'm working on it. I dont know if there will be a flat panel in this version. The Alnitak has too small of a panel. I think initially it will just be a light tight and dust tight cover integrated into a dew shield. I'll be working on this in the coming weeks and will keep folks posted.
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The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
I mainly plan to use the DSD flat flipper panel as a dust cap and dark frame aid. For the actual flats I have a wall mounted 24 inch flat panel that I use for the CDK and that should effectively be the same as a sky flat (w/o gradients or stars  ), being at a distance of about 3 feet from the OTA.
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
Good call. I do sky flats with my epsilon using voyager.
I do want t light tight/dust tight cover. And can easily open it up early to allow cooling. Does it get hot at DSP?  |
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Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
I mainly plan to use the DSD flat flipper panel as a dust cap and dark frame aid. For the actual flats I have a wall mounted 24 inch flat panel that I use for the CDK and that should effectively be the same as a sky flat (w/o gradients or stars ), being at a distance of about 3 feet from the OTA.
The light falloff is extreme with epsi. 45% off axis for full frame chip. It may be challenging to model with a panel, but certainly worth trying! Voyager automates it, adjusting exposure length and dithering so sky flats are painless. But... not sure how other softwares might do it.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
I mainly plan to use the DSD flat flipper panel as a dust cap and dark frame aid. For the actual flats I have a wall mounted 24 inch flat panel that I use for the CDK and that should effectively be the same as a sky flat (w/o gradients or stars ), being at a distance of about 3 feet from the OTA.
The light falloff is extreme with epsi. 45% off axis for full frame chip. It may be challenging to model with a panel, but certainly worth trying! Voyager automates it, adjusting exposure length and dithering so sky flats are painless. But... not sure how other softwares might do it.
My FlatMan works great with my Epi...but I use sky flats because they're automated. (If things are going well, I might still use the FlatMan at the beginning of the night, just to get it out of the way.) Granted, I have the FlatMan sitting on the end of my dewshield, so maybe that's different from pointing it at a lightsource on the wall of an obsy.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
Good call. I do sky flats with my epsilon using voyager.
I do want t light tight/dust tight cover. And can easily open it up early to allow cooling. Does it get hot at DSP?
I know you were just being funny, but I do want to emphasize that it not only gets extremely hot at the site (I mean, it is in the desert of New Mexico after all) but it also gets VERY hot in the closed observatory. During the summer I have the camera set to be turned off by Viking at the end of my Voyager session by switching off the power on the DLI Web switch. At the height of the summer the inside of the observatory is very warm (~40C or more) so having the camera turned off when not in use is a good idea.
Similarly, I have the fans on my scope running at all times, at ~50% power. Even with that, I still have a bit of time at the beginning of the night for the mirrors to finish cooling down. They open the roof about a hour or so before imaging time to let gear cool, let you take flats, etc. The roof closes right as the sun is coming up as well, in case you need flats in the morning.
Check out their YouTube video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCyj8uvm9Sc
The CDK the camera pans around in the video is mine. 
-Bill
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Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The Epsilon doesn't take very good panel flats compared to sky flats anyhow. I'm not sure I would run the scope remotely with a panel covering it. The heat would all get trapped inside and take a bit to get the scope cooled down after it opens up. Might not be a problem, but it's definitely something to monitor. Maybe open it up an hour so before imaging time?
I mainly plan to use the DSD flat flipper panel as a dust cap and dark frame aid. For the actual flats I have a wall mounted 24 inch flat panel that I use for the CDK and that should effectively be the same as a sky flat (w/o gradients or stars ), being at a distance of about 3 feet from the OTA.
I have never had a single problem with sky flats. Voyager dithers my scope for every flat, and makes sure the exposure is correct for each filter. If there are a few stars in the flats, it does not matter as they will be rejected when you go to stack the master flat. I use percentile clipping in PI for this, and it works perfectly every time.
I use sky flats for all scopes, and plan to use them with the CDK20 I have in Chile that is coming online very soon.
-Bill
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Last night I had a chance to test ASG's EAT motorized tilt device on Epsi. My sky conditions were not very good with seeing around 2.8" and poor transparency. Under better conditions star aberrations are more pronounced so may require more refinement... I would call my collimation an 8/10 so that can be improved as well. I was rushing over the last couple of days to install the focuser and change mirror spacing, so it's a quick and dirty on the collimation.
I previously tested EAT on a refractor. Moving it to the epsi I thought it was going to be a bit of a torture test, but I was wrong. The device handled it easily and adjustments produced expected results and were repeatable.
I ran ASTAP Hyperbolic Curve Analysis 9 times over the course of 75 minutes. 7 of those runs resulted in tilt adjustments and 2 of them with backspacing adjustments. I ended up maxing out the travel of the EAT as I was refining backspacing so I need to put a 1mm shim in my image train to continue refining spacing, but this result is quite good after only 75 minutes of tinkering.
I'll add that I did all of my tinkering while reclined on my couch in my living room sipping a beverage with my feet up on the coffee table.
Here is the Before Image without any tilt or spacing refinement. As you can see there is clearly a spacing and tilt issue. High res file here for pixel peepers:
https://www.astrobin.com/1yyvfq/0/
*Please note, that the EAT device itself is likely contributing to this tilt error. The high res tilt devices like EAT, Cage, Octopi all clamp onto the camera barrel. This method of connection is not likely to hold orthogonality as well as a threaded or bolted connection. It's not a problem, as the devices are designed to eliminate this error. But it should be noted that a threaded or bolted system (without a tilt device) would likely produce a better result out of the box than my before image below. Of course, it's probably not going to be perfect either... which is why these devices are in vogue...
Here is the After Image after making 9 adjustments following the guidance of ASTAP Hyperbolic Curve Analysis:
https://www.astrobin.com/1yyvfq/B/
There is still some residual error to refine but visually the result is very good, especially considering this is a full frame chip on an ultra-fast telescope. I'll be adding a shim and taking this to the next level once I get another clear night.
I did a bit of spacing testing of the device itself. Once I refined tilt I ran the device in and out across about 1mm of travel range. It held my tilt adjustments perfectly. I am extremely impressed with this device. In the past I would not continue refining this result. I'd be happy with it and leave it alone. Now, I'm excited to see just what this system is capable of delivering for star quality! One more step on the path to remote deployment!
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| @Chris White- Overcast Observatory this looks great, and sounds great!. Especially the part where you are adjusting remotely, it is a game changer. Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope ASG brings this device to market.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Last night I had a chance to test the EAT motorized tilt device on Epsi. My sky conditions were not very good with seeing around 2.8" and poor transparency. Under better conditions star aberrations are more pronounced so may require more refinement... I would call my collimation an 8/10 so that can be improved as well. I was rushing over the last couple of days to install the focuser and change mirror spacing, so it's a quick and dirty on the collimation.
I previously tested EAT on a refractor. Moving it to the epsi I thought it was going to be a bit of a torture test, but I was wrong. The device handled it easily and adjustments produced expected results and were repeatable.
I ran ASTAP Hyperbolic Curve Analysis 9 times over the course of 75 minutes. 7 of those runs resulted in tilt adjustments and 2 of them with backspacing adjustments. I ended up maxing out the travel of the EAT as I was refining backspacing so I need to put a 1mm shim in my image train to continue refining spacing, but this result is quite good after only 75 minutes of tinkering.
I'll add that I did all of my tinkering while reclined on my couch in my living room sipping a beverage with my feet up on the coffee table.
Here is the Before Image without any tilt or spacing refinement. As you can see there is clearly a spacing and tilt issue. High res file here for pixel peepers:
https://www.astrobin.com/1yyvfq/0/
Here is the After Image after making 9 adjustments following the guidance of ASTAP Hyperbolic Curve Analysis:
https://www.astrobin.com/1yyvfq/B/
There is still some residual error to refine but visually the result is very good, especially considering this is a full frame chip on an ultra-fast telescope. I'll be adding a shim and taking this to the next level once I get another clear night.
I did a bit of spacing testing of the device itself. Once I refined tilt I ran the device in and out across about 1mm of travel range. It held my tilt adjustments perfectly. I am extremely impressed with this device. In the past I would not continue refining this result. I'd be happy with it and leave it alone. Now, I'm excited to see just what this system is capable of delivering for star quality! One more step on the path to remote deployment!
Woo, absolutely stunning device ! This is very promising especially while in remote obs.
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@Chris White- Overcast Observatory this looks great, and sounds great!. Especially the part where you are adjusting remotely, it is a game changer. Thanks for sharing your experience. I hope ASG brings this device to market.
My pleasure! I hope they do as well. I don't really have much information on the viability of the project from a business perspective. In chatting with Josh, I know there is a lot that goes into something like this. Hardware, software, assembly, etc... He told me that there have been some updates made to the prototype, so after I finish testing this I'll be sending it back for some service/upgrades and getting it back for a second round of beta testing. It's a good time to be in the hobby! Tiny pixel high QE cameras, and optics that can support the cameras as well as a myriad of devices to automate and refine your setup to get the most out of it. I'm also awaiting the OPTEC Hercules, which is basically a low profile Gemini. Hoping to see that become available in the coming weeks.
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After some consideration, I‘ve jumped on the Leo and didn‘t wait for the Hercules to become ready. It‘ll be with me on Monday already! My Astronomik filters also arrived.
Any comments on my further plans?
I‘ll first use it with my present QHY268 and then switch over to full frame at home - one step at a time.
I‘m also hoping the motorized ASG will become available. I contacted Josh for the standard one and that would work as an adapter for my currently-planned image train: ZWO 7x50mm square filterwheel with the QHY600 SBFL.
My QHY filterwheels really aren‘t reliable enough for remote imaging, so being able to use a ZWO (all mine have been rock-solid) is an advantage. I won‘t need an OAG because my dual-scope setup is rigid enough to use the RC as a guider and I really expect to be able to do unguided when I switch from my wooden deck to a solid pier.
I‘ld love a Moravian camera but they are incompatible with both the Octopi and the ASG.
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Torben van Hees:
After some consideration, I‘ve jumped on the Leo and didn‘t wait for the Hercules to become ready. It‘ll be with me on Monday already! My Astronomik filters also arrived.
Any comments on my further plans?
I‘ll first use it with my present QHY268 and then switch over to full frame at home - one step at a time.
I‘m also hoping the motorized ASG will become available. I contacted Josh for the standard one and that would work as an adapter for my currently-planned image train: ZWO 7x50mm square filterwheel with the QHY600 SBFL.
My QHY filterwheels really aren‘t reliable enough for remote imaging, so being able to use a ZWO (all mine have been rock-solid) is an advantage. I won‘t need an OAG because my dual-scope setup is rigid enough to use the RC as a guider and I really expect to be able to do unguided when I switch from my wooden deck to a solid pier.
I‘ld love a Moravian camera but they are incompatible with both the Octopi and the ASG.
I'm running the qhy600 sbfl and the zwo wheel (50mm). I agree with your comments.
I do have an oag in my train but it's probably not needed. I plan to deploy remotely at some point so wanted the option to guide (bump guiding with a mach2) in case I end up doing really long exposures in NB.
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I‘ve tested and with a fresh model I can do 300s unguided even now, and when I use the RC for bump guiding, exposure time is basically unlimited (tested up to 3000s).
Edited for wrong time.
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Chris! That's awesome! I may hold out until someone whips up some software to automate the tilt process like autofocus (and to give me a chance to work with the Hercules when it comes in). Man, that's so sweet! I can finally switch out cameras (I'm strictly mobile) and not waste whole nights anymore!
MZ
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Torben van Hees:
After some consideration, I‘ve jumped on the Leo and didn‘t wait for the Hercules to become ready. It‘ll be with me on Monday already! My Astronomik filters also arrived.
Any comments on my further plans?
I‘ll first use it with my present QHY268 and then switch over to full frame at home - one step at a time.
I‘m also hoping the motorized ASG will become available. I contacted Josh for the standard one and that would work as an adapter for my currently-planned image train: ZWO 7x50mm square filterwheel with the QHY600 SBFL.
My QHY filterwheels really aren‘t reliable enough for remote imaging, so being able to use a ZWO (all mine have been rock-solid) is an advantage. I won‘t need an OAG because my dual-scope setup is rigid enough to use the RC as a guider and I really expect to be able to do unguided when I switch from my wooden deck to a solid pier.
I‘ld love a Moravian camera but they are incompatible with both the Octopi and the ASG.
I'm running the qhy600 sbfl and the zwo wheel (50mm). I agree with your comments.
I do have an oag in my train but it's probably not needed. I plan to deploy remotely at some point so wanted the option to guide (bump guiding with a mach2) in case I end up doing really long exposures in NB.
I would definitely deploy the system remotely with an OAG in the design. You don't want to find out that in that improved seeing that your unguided imaging isn't up to your standard, and not have the option of guiding at your disposal. It also serves as an indicator to Voyager to suspend a bad target and move to the next one in the list. When seeing deteriorates it can sometimes be better in other parts of the sky. This becomes more apparent when you have the entire sky at your disposal. Same applies to high clouds of course.
Bill
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Hi Everyone,
I am planning to use a ZWO ASI6200mm with an ASG tilt cage, with the thinner 16mm ZWO EFW for square filter along with the new OAG-L 68. I will use a Leo Optec Focuser..The spacing should be:
ASI 6200 = 12.5mm
Cage = 5mm (this includes 3mm for the cage +1mm for tilt room +1mm for backfocus room
)EFW = 16mm
OAG = 17.5mm
Old tilt plate = 5mm
totalizing 56mm. As I will use 3mm thick filters, I would need 57.2 mm of backfocus.
Considering I still have some room, my idea is to use a thin spacer to rotate the OAG, so it will be positioned in a way it matches the thinner sides of the Leo Optec.
Sounds good? Or am I missing something?
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Rafael Sampaio:
Considering I still have some room, my idea is to use a thin spacer to rotate the OAG, so it will be positioned in a way it matches the thinner sides of the Leo Optec.
What do you mean by this?
The corrector threads into a LEO drawtube adapter. This adapter can be rotated in the drawtube of the LEO, so you can use whatever camera position you want.
Also, you are not accounting for the adapter to thread into the corrector. It's M54. I assume your tilt plate is as well? Both are female so you need a male to male adapter. These generally take up 2mm. I think I'm using a blue fireball. Since the OAG-L requires the tilt plate, you might not have enough spacing room. Also, the ZWO OAG focuser might hit the LEO. Someone who has tried to do this will hopefully chime in.
You could use the Indigo OAG, which only takes up 14mm and that includes the m54 faceplate. It also has a thin profile camera holder. That would give you plenty of spacing left over to connect to the corrector.
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Chris White- Overcast Observatory:
Rafael Sampaio:
Considering I still have some room, my idea is to use a thin spacer to rotate the OAG, so it will be positioned in a way it matches the thinner sides of the Leo Optec.
What do you mean by this?
The corrector threads into a LEO drawtube adapter. This adapter can be rotated in the drawtube of the LEO, so you can use whatever camera position you want.
Also, you are not accounting for the adapter to thread into the corrector. It's M54. I assume your tilt plate is as well? Both are female so you need a male to male adapter. These generally take up 2mm. I think I'm using a blue fireball. Since the OAG-L requires the tilt plate, you might not have enough spacing room. Also, the ZWO OAG focuser might hit the LEO. Someone who has tried to do this will hopefully chime in.
You could use the Indigo OAG, which only takes up 14mm and that includes the m54 faceplate. It also has a thin profile camera holder. That would give you plenty of spacing left over to connect to the corrector.
I use the Indigo OAG and it works well with the ZWO EFW and rhe LEO.
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Daniel Carter:
use the Indigo OAG and it works well with the ZWO EFW and rhe LEO.
What are you using for tip/tilt adjustment? Surely there is not enough room to adjust that with anything but the LEO base, which is a bit crude compared to an Octopi or Photon Cage.
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20.43
11.02
5.21
3.61
2.41
4.88
4.40
1.20
3.58
