Bill McLaughlin:
On the fans/delta T issue, I have to agree that for such a great scope and generally great company, they really screwed up the way they control heat and fans. It is almost like one company designed the optics and mechanics and some much less capable company did the heater/fans. It is something that is in desperate need of a total rethink.
I use a Nightcrawler on my 14 and have the Delta T. The site is quite humid (not too far from the coast in Ca). That means often great seeing but also lots of humidity and humidity roof closure is common in the winter (especially THIS winter  ). I have had no issues with humidity and the mirrors. If there is any chance the roof will open I have the system set to enable the delta T, even if I am not imaging. For fans, I just run them full on when imaging - direct from the UPB. Looking at the mirrors after a year, they do not appear any worse dirt wise than those on my iDK at home where I can cover them.
I still wish they would fix the brain dead system they came up with!
I fully second to that. The good the optics are, the more the electronics sucks. It is a completely messed up concept.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
You definitely can run the fans from the Powerbox. I have them on the variable voltage port on mine, and I run that at 6v at all times. That's basically half speed, and seems to be the sweet spot for where I am located in Animas.
Yes, I may do that as well once I get the new power box installed where I have plenty of ports!
I tested the fan power level using SkyWave. There was a noticable difference with them at 100%, which was visible in focused frames as well. With them off, it would get worse over small amounts of time, and at 50% the stars and results from SkyWave were consistently good and repeatable for hours on end. So that's where I left it.
Bill
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Another related point:
They recently added Delta T control to PWI4. BUT.... in keeping with the unfortunate methodology, they did not allow primary heater control in PWI4 (secondary works OK ) if you do not have the focus controller. Here is a post from PW (Planewave forum).
"In the current release of PWI4, it specifically compares the Primary Mirror temperature (which comes from the EFA) to the ambient temperature. If only the Delta-T is connected, it does not fall back to using the Backplate temperature for now. If there is a need for this, I can work on getting it added."
As far as I know, this has not been fixed yet, but I have not checked. So far, PWI3 still works for me for Delta T control.
They really need to understand that a very large percentage of users do not use their focuser and do not want to!!!
We need a new Delta T box that controls both fans and heaters!!!! I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount for that!! |
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Funny enough, their US competitor is going out of the scope business, yet had a single control box for both. They also didn't sell their own focuser at all and designed using Optec focusers instead.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Another related point:
They recently added Delta T control to PWI4. BUT.... in keeping with the unfortunate methodology, they did not allow primary heater control in PWI4 (secondary works OK ) if you do not have the focus controller. Here is a post from PW (Planewave forum).
"In the current release of PWI4, it specifically compares the Primary Mirror temperature (which comes from the EFA) to the ambient temperature. If only the Delta-T is connected, it does not fall back to using the Backplate temperature for now. If there is a need for this, I can work on getting it added."
As far as I know, this has not been fixed yet, but I have not checked. So far, PWI3 still works for me for Delta T control.
They really need to understand that a very large percentage of users do not use their focuser and do not want to!!!
We need a new Delta T box that controls both fans and heaters!!!! I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount for that!!
I suppose, they want to have their PW ecosystem closed for any other equipment - like Apple does too.
They only way to force them, would be, that another vendor like PA brings a UPB-PWI. An special adaption for their ecosystem. But I guess, the potential market is to small. But on the other hand, they also included feature for 10 Micron mounts too. Also a special PWI firmware for the UPB could be the solution....
Many ideas, bur as long as there is competition, PWI wont touch anything. They want to sell the overpriced junk.
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Ruediger:
Bill McLaughlin:
Another related point:
They recently added Delta T control to PWI4. BUT.... in keeping with the unfortunate methodology, they did not allow primary heater control in PWI4 (secondary works OK ) if you do not have the focus controller. Here is a post from PW (Planewave forum).
"In the current release of PWI4, it specifically compares the Primary Mirror temperature (which comes from the EFA) to the ambient temperature. If only the Delta-T is connected, it does not fall back to using the Backplate temperature for now. If there is a need for this, I can work on getting it added."
As far as I know, this has not been fixed yet, but I have not checked. So far, PWI3 still works for me for Delta T control.
They really need to understand that a very large percentage of users do not use their focuser and do not want to!!!
We need a new Delta T box that controls both fans and heaters!!!! I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount for that!!
I suppose, they want to have their PW ecosystem closed for any other equipment - like Apple does too.
They only way to force them, would be, that another vendor like PA brings a UPB-PWI. An special adaption for their ecosystem. But I guess, the potential market is to small. But on the other hand, they also included feature for 10 Micron mounts too. Also a special PWI firmware for the UPB could be the solution....
Many ideas, bur as long as there is competition, PWI wont touch anything. They want to sell the overpriced junk.
Hopefully we see a product that can control both the Planewave systems and AGO systems that is third party and works very well.
Bonus points if it can be adapted to RCOS systems as well.
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Funny enough, their US competitor is going out of the scope business, yet had a single control box for both. They also didn't sell their own focuser at all and designed using Optec focusers instead.
Yes, I have a 10 inch iDK as well (at home instead of remotely like the CDK). I probably will sell it and get an E180 for at home. Too little clear sky in Oregon for a slow scope!  But the temp control does work nicely and is standalone fans/heaters as nature intended!  |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Ruediger:
Bill McLaughlin:
Another related point:
They recently added Delta T control to PWI4. BUT.... in keeping with the unfortunate methodology, they did not allow primary heater control in PWI4 (secondary works OK ) if you do not have the focus controller. Here is a post from PW (Planewave forum).
"In the current release of PWI4, it specifically compares the Primary Mirror temperature (which comes from the EFA) to the ambient temperature. If only the Delta-T is connected, it does not fall back to using the Backplate temperature for now. If there is a need for this, I can work on getting it added."
As far as I know, this has not been fixed yet, but I have not checked. So far, PWI3 still works for me for Delta T control.
They really need to understand that a very large percentage of users do not use their focuser and do not want to!!!
We need a new Delta T box that controls both fans and heaters!!!! I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount for that!!
I suppose, they want to have their PW ecosystem closed for any other equipment - like Apple does too.
They only way to force them, would be, that another vendor like PA brings a UPB-PWI. An special adaption for their ecosystem. But I guess, the potential market is to small. But on the other hand, they also included feature for 10 Micron mounts too. Also a special PWI firmware for the UPB could be the solution....
Many ideas, bur as long as there is competition, PWI wont touch anything. They want to sell the overpriced junk.
Hopefully we see a product that can control both the Planewave systems and AGO systems that is third party and works very well.
Bonus points if it can be adapted to RCOS systems as well.
I would defiantly be all in for that! It sounds lime an opportunity for someone with the skills!
And yes, there are quite a few older RCOS systems that could use that as well, their system was funky in the extreme. I had one and it blew serial port circuits on a regular basis...
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
You definitely can run the fans from the Powerbox. I have them on the variable voltage port on mine, and I run that at 6v at all times. That's basically half speed, and seems to be the sweet spot for where I am located in Animas.
The Delta T, you shouldn't power from the Powerbox. Rouz and others had their Delta T box fail when powered from the Powerbox. I run it directly into my Digital Loggers IP power switch instead and haven't had a problem at all. USB of course, is completely safe on the Powerbox and that's how my Delta T connects.
That's actually a very good idea. I have the fans now run on the standard 12V output of the Powerbox, but it feels a bit over the top, so was thinking turning it off after a few hours. Nice how you have fine-tuned it with Skywave. I think I'll switch it over as well to the variable port and keep it on all night.
The Delta-T seems like a very delicate device with questionable reliance. Besides the reported bricked units after being powered from the Powerbox, mine came new dead in the box. And took a long time to get a replacement.... I made sure to power it directly and not through the powerbox, so runs now a separate power cable from the OTA.
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
You definitely can run the fans from the Powerbox. I have them on the variable voltage port on mine, and I run that at 6v at all times. That's basically half speed, and seems to be the sweet spot for where I am located in Animas.
Yes, I may do that as well once I get the new power box installed where I have plenty of ports!
I tested the fan power level using SkyWave. There was a noticable difference with them at 100%, which was visible in focused frames as well. With them off, it would get worse over small amounts of time, and at 50% the stars and results from SkyWave were consistently good and repeatable for hours on end. So that's where I left it.
Bill
This is excellent information to have. I'll try this--plugging the fans into the variable voltage port on the PBU.
On the subject of burning out Delta-Ts with the UPB, I sent Pegasus an email about this yesterday and they said they've only had a couple of reports of this while many of their other users have powered the Delta-T and EFA with the UBP with no issues. There's often a certain level of horse hockey in responses like that, but if it can be believed, it sounds like a Planewave issue, not a Pegasus issue. Still, I'll include the power supplies and extension cables for the EFA and Delta-T in my enclosure when I take it out next week. I am mindful of the fact, however, that I'm using the brand new UPB v3, which is untried and untested in the field by, well, anyone.
Again, I take everyone seriously about all this, but I'm pretty set on trying this without the Delta-T or EFA. Given that I'm only running a CDK12, I might just get away with it. The complexity of the added hardware, the weirdness of the overall design, and the requirement to run additional, arcane 1990s software on top of an already complex arrangement just makes me feel like the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
With NINA and the Sequencer Powerups plugin, I can set either dew heater at any level I want for any differential between the dew point and the ambient temperature at any time based on real-time conditions. With Bill's information about using the fan at half voltage, I can also set the fan at any voltage between 0 and 12 at any time based on conditions. I'm not really sure what else I need or what else, other than the actual main-mirror temperature, the EFA/Delta-T combination is going to give me. It will take experimentation and fine tuning to get it right, but I've got the time and inclination for that if it ultimately simplifies my life and my rig.
I'm just an unfrozen cave-man lawyer. The world of proprietary hardware and cables frightens and confuses me. But I was also a programmer for 30 years, so I don't mind doing things with software. If I can make this work, it may have some value to others.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Another related point:
They recently added Delta T control to PWI4. BUT.... in keeping with the unfortunate methodology, they did not allow primary heater control in PWI4 (secondary works OK ) if you do not have the focus controller. Here is a post from PW (Planewave forum).
"In the current release of PWI4, it specifically compares the Primary Mirror temperature (which comes from the EFA) to the ambient temperature. If only the Delta-T is connected, it does not fall back to using the Backplate temperature for now. If there is a need for this, I can work on getting it added."
As far as I know, this has not been fixed yet, but I have not checked. So far, PWI3 still works for me for Delta T control.
They really need to understand that a very large percentage of users do not use their focuser and do not want to!!!
We need a new Delta T box that controls both fans and heaters!!!! I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount for that!!
Can only wholeheartedly agree. I run a Gemini on my CDK14 and have so far refused to buy an extra EFA just to read an extra temperature sensor.
It is actually surprising to hear that apparently it is possible to hardwire the series 5 controller to run the CDK's? If that is possible, they should have made that the default as soon as the series 5 came out. At the time we might still have complained about the surprising choice for a 24V device, but with the new Powerbox that problem is solved.. |
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Timothy Martin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
You definitely can run the fans from the Powerbox. I have them on the variable voltage port on mine, and I run that at 6v at all times. That's basically half speed, and seems to be the sweet spot for where I am located in Animas.
Yes, I may do that as well once I get the new power box installed where I have plenty of ports!
I tested the fan power level using SkyWave. There was a noticable difference with them at 100%, which was visible in focused frames as well. With them off, it would get worse over small amounts of time, and at 50% the stars and results from SkyWave were consistently good and repeatable for hours on end. So that's where I left it.
Bill
This is excellent information to have. I'll try this--plugging the fans into the variable voltage port on the PBU.
On the subject of burning out Delta-Ts with the UPB, I sent Pegasus an email about this yesterday and they said they've only had a couple of reports of this while many of their other users have powered the Delta-T and EFA with the UBP with no issues. There's often a certain level of horse hockey in responses like that, but if it can be believed, it sounds like a Planewave issue, not a Pegasus issue. Still, I'll include the power supplies and extension cables for the EFA and Delta-T in my enclosure when I take it out next week. I am mindful of the fact, however, that I'm using the brand new UPB v3, which is untried and untested in the field by, well, anyone.
Again, I take everyone seriously about all this, but I'm pretty set on trying this without the Delta-T or EFA. Given that I'm only running a CDK12, I might just get away with it. The complexity of the added hardware, the weirdness of the overall design, and the requirement to run additional, arcane 1990s software on top of an already complex arrangement just makes me feel like the juice isn't worth the squeeze.
With NINA and the Sequencer Powerups plugin, I can set either dew heater at any level I want for any differential between the dew point and the ambient temperature at any time based on real-time conditions. With Bill's information about using the fan at half voltage, I can also set the fan at any voltage between 0 and 12 at any time based on conditions. I'm not really sure what else I need or what else, other than the actual main-mirror temperature, the EFA/Delta-T combination is going to give me. It will take experimentation and fine tuning to get it right, but I've got the time and inclination for that if it ultimately simplifies my life and my rig.
I'm just an unfrozen cave-man lawyer. The world of proprietary hardware and cables frightens and confuses me. But I was also a programmer for 30 years, so I don't mind doing things with software. If I can make this work, it may have some value to others.
The fan will not turn on at a voltage less than 6v, and really I do not know if that is actually half power, quarter power, etc. I only know that was the best setting based on my testing, and just so happened to be the minimal voltage setting the fans would turn on with.
You can certainly try to run all of this without the Delta T or EFA (note I do not use the EFA, that is a complete rip-off IMO for folks not using their focuser) and I will be interested in hearing your experience. I am fine with my current situation, and just so you know for powering the heaters, the software does not need to be running. The Delta T unit receives the configuration from the software. You can close it after configuring it, and never open it again and it will do what it is configured to do. The software at that point just plots things on a graph for you to visually look at if you desire and make adjustments if needed.
-Bill
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Still, I'll include the power supplies and extension cables for the EFA and Delta-T in my enclosure when I take it out next week. I am mindful of the fact, however, that I'm using the brand new UPB v3, which is untried and untested in the field by, well, anyone.
There is already one bug in the V3 box. For those that need to turn on/off one or more of the USB ports, a firmware issue is causing NINA to confuse ports 1-3 with ports 4-6, causing very odd behavior. Pegasus is aware of this and plans a firmware update soon.
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Bill McLaughlin:
Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
Still, I'll include the power supplies and extension cables for the EFA and Delta-T in my enclosure when I take it out next week. I am mindful of the fact, however, that I'm using the brand new UPB v3, which is untried and untested in the field by, well, anyone.
There is already one bug in the V3 box. For those that need to turn on/off one or more of the USB ports, a firmware issue is causing NINA to confuse ports 1-3 with ports 4-6, causing very odd behavior. Pegasus is aware of this and plans a firmware update soon.
That quote was not from me. |
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
I tested the fan power level using SkyWave. There was a noticable difference with them at 100%, which was visible in focused frames as well. With them off, it would get worse over small amounts of time, and at 50% the stars and results from SkyWave were consistently good and repeatable for hours on end. So that's where I left it.
Bill
You don't need SKW to see what the fans are doing to image quality. Simply point at a bright star, defocus your scope to get an image about 300 pix in diameter and set your exposure time to be short--like 0.020" or shorter if you can. Then crop the frame (sub-window) and record the data for 5-10 seconds. Then turn on the fans and do the same thing. You'll be able to easily see the air flow and decide which is better for your particular scope. I found that the fans on your new CDK20 don't do good things image quality. On the other hand the tempest fans on my former C14 and now on my new ASA600 are essential. Fans can help with baffle plumes and to help speed heat exchange for the primary mirror, but they can also help to keep the mirror at ambient temperature, which is a good way to prevent dew. The convective heat exchange with the air will rapidly replace the power lost to thermal radiation to the sky, which prevents the mirror surface from going below the dew point. You just have to very careful about what it's doing to image quality.
John
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Bill Long - Dark Matters Astrophotography:
The fan will not turn on at a voltage less than 6v, and really I do not know if that is actually half power, quarter power, etc. I only know that was the best setting based on my testing, and just so happened to be the minimal voltage setting the fans would turn on with.
You can certainly try to run all of this without the Delta T or EFA (note I do not use the EFA, that is a complete rip-off IMO for folks not using their focuser) and I will be interested in hearing your experience. I am fine with my current situation, and just so you know for powering the heaters, the software does not need to be running. The Delta T unit receives the configuration from the software. You can close it after configuring it, and never open it again and it will do what it is configured to do. The software at that point just plots things on a graph for you to visually look at if you desire and make adjustments if needed.
-Bill
More great information. I also talked to Rouz directly since he's been helping me trick out this rig. I may install the Delta-T then. He says it does a really good job but that its foible is that it doesn't know the ambient humidity. It's just one more cable plus an additional power cable. So it may make sense to go ahead and rig that out. It would be easy enough to get Peter to just plug the dew-heater cables into it if I want to switch to it.
Incidentally, my fans won't turn on with anything less than 7v.
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Bill McLaughlin:
We need a new Delta T box that controls both fans and heaters!!!! I would be more than happy to pay a reasonable amount for that!!
@Bill McLaughlin It exists and is the Series 5 Controller. You just need to get PW to pre-wire your CDK for it before they ship out the scope instead of the conventional EFA+DeltaT wiring. Unfortunately it's not very well advertised, and for whatever reason the vendors aren't fully aware either. I had to ask the Cloud Break Optics folks here in Seattle for it, and by the time I found out and asked them to switch the wiring, it was too late for me to get my scope wired for it.
We should perhaps pin this information somewhere so that folks buying new CDKs don't fall into the EFA + DeltaT debacle and get the better setup with the Series 5 Controller.
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Ani Shastry:
@Bill McLaughlin It exists and is the Series 5 Controller. You just need to get PW to pre-wire your CDK for it before they ship out the scope instead of the conventional EFA+DeltaT wiring. Unfortunately it's not very well advertised, and for whatever reason the vendors aren't fully aware either. I had to ask the Cloud Break Optics folks here in Seattle for it, and by the time I found out and asked them to switch the wiring, it was too late for me to get my scope wired for it.
We should perhaps pin this information somewhere so that folks buying new CDKs don't fall into the EFA + DeltaT debacle and get the better setup with the Series 5 Controller.
This is good information to know and certainly should be pinned or otherwise made available to prospective buyers as it solves probably the largest issue I have with the CDK scopes.
I too am in the Seattle area (Snohomish to be precise) and you have the same last name as an ex-colleague of mine at Microsoft. His name is Uday. If by chance you know him, be sure to tell him I said hello.
-Bill
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@Bill Long It’s awesome to find a fellow astrophotography enthusiast in the area (in Sammamish myself)! Such a small world, figuratively and literally, particularly in our line of hobby I suppose!
In any case, would love to run into you sometime and chat.
Ani
PS: I unfortunately do not know Uday, but interesting nonetheless to know we share the same last name.
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Ani Shastry:
@Bill Long It’s awesome to find a fellow astrophotography enthusiast in the area (in Sammamish myself)! Such a small world, figuratively and literally, particularly in our line of hobby I suppose!
In any case, would love to run into you sometime and chat.
Ani
PS: I unfortunately do not know Uday, but interesting nonetheless to know we share the same last name.
After I have Chile online (which is quite the journey, thankfully John Hayes did a stellar job and was awesome to work with on the sale) we should get some coffee/tea and chat. There is a decent collective of imagers in this area, some of which are pretty well-versed and most of which drive over the pass to get to better skies, but the cloud situation is still a typical PNW thorn in the side even there.
All of that is why I moved to remote imaging. Its hard to complain about any data I get at remote sites, since it is always better than the data I got here in WA.
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Sounds like a plan @Bill! We can chat more offline.
Definitely very curious to hear about how setting up your rig at Chile goes. Best wishes that everything goes well.
Ani
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Just to follow up with this. Pegasus tells me that they have no open or recent issues regarding any Planewave hardware and their power boxes. I do know two people powering the Delta-T with the UPB who have had no problems. Take all this for what it's worth.
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Timothy Martin:
Just to follow up with this. Pegasus tells me that they have no open or recent issues regarding any Planewave hardware and their power boxes. I do know two people powering the Delta-T with the UPB who have had no problems. Take all this for what it's worth.
It works, until it doesn't.
Famous last words of people running scopes remotely. Folks can do as they wish, I am not the law firm of what to do with your telescope. What I can tell you, is that there are very good principles for running remotely successfully, and one of them, is to not use anything that has any history at all of premature failure. Just because Joe used it well, or Steve used it well, does not mean you will have the same experience.
Design your system on things that have the smallest chance of possible failure. If you do this, you will have a higher chance of being successful in remote imaging. Test them, over and over. Take absolutely nothing for granted at all. Assume everything in your system is going to fail, test it to confirm, and use others experiences with failed Delta T boxes on the UPB to heart.
Pegasus has every reason to tell you the product is just fine, after all if the Delta T dies on their box, it isn't their problem and they still have your money.
-Bill
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Timothy Martin:
Just to follow up with this. Pegasus tells me that they have no open or recent issues regarding any Planewave hardware and their power boxes. I do know two people powering the Delta-T with the UPB who have had no problems. Take all this for what it's worth.
Hi,
after frying one Delta-T and two UPB boards, I am running the Delta-T on the UPB for two years now. PA did changes to the PCB. I have now revision 3 of the PCB and it works without emitting photons, nor the smell of free electrons, nor small plumes of smoke 😂. That is probably why PA states no „current“ cases. The flash symbol is still shown when switched off, but PA confirmed to ignore it.
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My take is that unless there is some overriding reason to use DT with a UPB, it is safer to operate direct and probably from a separate DC supply. There are only two reasons I can think of that would make one want to use the UPB to power the DT.
1) You just don't have room for an extra cable thru the mount to power directly from a separate power supply. Not an issue for me with a Planewave mount since those have more room for cables that any other mount I know of (you can get your whole arm into them to string cables).
2) You don't have the ability to switch power to the DT any other way. That can be solved by using a Digital Loggers or other web switch to turn a separate DT power supply on and off. Using the ASCOM switch hub this can even be combined with a UPB for programmatic control in NINA and such.
I would rather avoid not just the possibility of "magic smoke" but also avoid having to endure finger pointing between Planewave and Pegasus.
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