Thank you for a great guide @Chris White, very timely for me as I am putting a QHY600 on my Tak FSQ106 soon, just waiting for the needed precise parts adapter to land finally.
I knew I would have to run the ASTAP process to clean up any tilt, but have no experience with it, so this guide will help me immensely.
Just a question, what plan of attack would you recommend if you suspect an element of focuser sag? Would it make sense to do the analysis multiple times, say with the camera rotated at 0/180 degrees and then 90/270 degrees to see if an element of sag can be detected this way? Also what area of sky do you recommend to perform the analysis at? I suspect any flex or sag will show up more pointing at lower altitudes and not so much pointing straight up, near the zenith?
Thanks again,
Regards,
Jacques
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Thank you for a great guide @Chris White, very timely for me as I am putting a QHY600 on my Tak FSQ106 soon, just waiting for the needed precise parts adapter to land finally.
I knew I would have to run the ASTAP process to clean up any tilt, but have no experience with it, so this guide will help me immensely.
Just a question, what plan of attack would you recommend if you suspect an element of focuser sag? Would it make sense to do the analysis multiple times, say with the camera rotated at 0/180 degrees and then 90/270 degrees to see if an element of sag can be detected this way? Also what area of sky do you recommend to perform the analysis at? I suspect any flex or sag will show up more pointing at lower altitudes and not so much pointing straight up, near the zenith?
Thanks again,
Regards,
Jacques
I hadnt considered using NINA to check for focuser sag, but it would work. Yes, low altitude focus runs on the East and West and compare should give a snapshot of sag if present.
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Thank you for a great guide @Chris White, very timely for me as I am putting a QHY600 on my Tak FSQ106 soon, just waiting for the needed precise parts adapter to land finally.
I knew I would have to run the ASTAP process to clean up any tilt, but have no experience with it, so this guide will help me immensely.
Just a question, what plan of attack would you recommend if you suspect an element of focuser sag? Would it make sense to do the analysis multiple times, say with the camera rotated at 0/180 degrees and then 90/270 degrees to see if an element of sag can be detected this way? Also what area of sky do you recommend to perform the analysis at? I suspect any flex or sag will show up more pointing at lower altitudes and not so much pointing straight up, near the zenith?
Thanks again,
Regards,
Jacques
I hadnt considered using NINA to check for focuser sag, but it would work. Yes, low altitude focus runs on the East and West and compare should give a snapshot of sag if present.
Thanks @Chris White, will give it a shot.
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 When I see that the original poster has an ASTAP report of tilt at a "mild" 10%, I am very jealous and vexed. My most recent light subs, from an image for a mosaic that turned out quit nice but has terrible stars shows an ASTAP tilt of "extreme 36%". I doubt many guys would want to live with this.
So, two questions:
1) I have NINA on my indoor desktop. I don't use it for image capture because it can't be tethered by cord out to my driveway. I use the ASIAIR Pro to do all that, as well as run my ASI EAF. But would NINA and its plug in Hocus Focus tilt analysis work as ASTAP does to suggest whether my back focus is long or short? Knowing that would certainly help me! If I can't use NINA/Hocus, is there an alternative way to obtain this info?
2) Knowing nothing about whether I am long or short on back focus, I could experiment with just adding very small spacers rings. Then I re-display the sub in ASTAP and see whether the tilt decreased or increased. Is that a fair plan? What size rings would work on my ASI2600 and it's M42 adapter to the RASA 8? No sense ordering spacers that don't fit.
I can also attempt to manually rotate my camera through 90 and 180 degrees as ASI suggests to see if the tilt as depicted in ASTAP rotates with the camera. If it does, then the camera is where the tilt is, or at least part of it. I don't know how to correct camera tilt any differently.
The RASA 8 has a 25mm back focus. My ASI2600 is 17.5mm. The Starizona filter holder is 6.5mm plus 5mm extension piece. A filter in the holder adds 1mm (?).
This would appear to put me at 25.5mm, or, OVER the line a bit? At least as I calculate here.
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Paul Wilson:
When I see that the original poster has an ASTAP report of tilt at a "mild" 10%, I am very jealous and vexed. My most recent light subs, from an image for a mosaic that turned out quit nice but has terrible stars shows an ASTAP tilt of "extreme 36%". I doubt many guys would want to live with this.
So, two questions:
1) I have NINA on my indoor desktop. I don't use it for image capture because it can't be tethered by cord out to my driveway. I use the ASIAIR Pro to do all that, as well as run my ASI EAF. But would NINA and its plug in Hocus Focus tilt analysis work as ASTAP does to suggest whether my back focus is long or short? Knowing that would certainly help me! If I can't use NINA/Hocus, is there an alternative way to obtain this info?
2) Knowing nothing about whether I am long or short on back focus, I could experiment with just adding very small spacers rings. Then I re-display the sub in ASTAP and see whether the tilt decreased or increased. Is that a fair plan? What size rings would work on my ASI2600 and it's M42 adapter to the RASA 8? No sense ordering spacers that don't fit.
I can also attempt to manually rotate my camera through 90 and 180 degrees as ASI suggests to see if the tilt as depicted in ASTAP rotates with the camera. If it does, then the camera is where the tilt is, or at least part of it. I don't know how to correct camera tilt any differently.
The RASA 8 has a 25mm back focus. My ASI2600 is 17.5mm. The Starizona filter holder is 6.5mm plus 5mm extension piece. A filter in the holder adds 1mm (?).
This would appear to put me at 25.5mm, or, OVER the line a bit? At least as I calculate here.
1) Yes. Nina Hocus Focus will evaluate and advice on backspacing. Its one of the main reasons I recommend it. You could achieve the same analysis by manually collecting a set of focus bracket shots (Does ASI allow you to keep the exposures used for field focus routine) and manually load into ASTAP as I instructed in the OP for hyperbola curve fitting. Then paste the data into EXCEL and make some graphs. If your center curve apex is aligned with the apex of your corner curves, backspacing is optimal. If not... I explained previously how to interpret that result.
2) Go to Agena and search for blue fireball spacing rings. A trial and error attempt with spacing will not be very productive though. Do you have a laptop? If so... time to bring it out in the driveway and spend a night with NINA. ;-)
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Paul Wilson:
When I see that the original poster has an ASTAP report of tilt at a "mild" 10%, I am very jealous and vexed. My most recent light subs, from an image for a mosaic that turned out quit nice but has terrible stars shows an ASTAP tilt of "extreme 36%". I doubt many guys would want to live with this.
So, two questions:
1) I have NINA on my indoor desktop. I don't use it for image capture because it can't be tethered by cord out to my driveway. I use the ASIAIR Pro to do all that, as well as run my ASI EAF. But would NINA and its plug in Hocus Focus tilt analysis work as ASTAP does to suggest whether my back focus is long or short? Knowing that would certainly help me! If I can't use NINA/Hocus, is there an alternative way to obtain this info?
2) Knowing nothing about whether I am long or short on back focus, I could experiment with just adding very small spacers rings. Then I re-display the sub in ASTAP and see whether the tilt decreased or increased. Is that a fair plan? What size rings would work on my ASI2600 and it's M42 adapter to the RASA 8? No sense ordering spacers that don't fit.
I can also attempt to manually rotate my camera through 90 and 180 degrees as ASI suggests to see if the tilt as depicted in ASTAP rotates with the camera. If it does, then the camera is where the tilt is, or at least part of it. I don't know how to correct camera tilt any differently.
The RASA 8 has a 25mm back focus. My ASI2600 is 17.5mm. The Starizona filter holder is 6.5mm plus 5mm extension piece. A filter in the holder adds 1mm (?).
This would appear to put me at 25.5mm, or, OVER the line a bit? At least as I calculate here.
1) Yes. Nina Hocus Focus will evaluate and advice on backspacing. Its one of the main reasons I recommend it. You could achieve the same analysis by manually collecting a set of focus bracket shots (Does ASI allow you to keep the exposures used for field focus routine) and manually load into ASTAP as I instructed in the OP for hyperbola curve fitting. Then paste the data into EXCEL and make some graphs. If your center curve apex is aligned with the apex of your corner curves, backspacing is optimal. If not... I explained previously how to interpret that result.
2) Go to Agena and search for blue fireball spacing rings. A trial and error attempt with spacing will not be very productive though. Do you have a laptop? If so... time to bring it out in the driveway and spend a night with NINA. ;-)
*** No. No serviceable Windows laptop, chromebook only. That's why I use my iPad and ASIAir Pro. ASIAIR really does a nice job with the captures. But of course it lacks the capabilities of a much more robust program like NINA. I can't tether a laptop to the AIR and the mount and leave it sitting in driveway through the night. ***
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Paul Wilson:
*** No. No serviceable Windows laptop, chromebook only. That's why I use my iPad and ASIAir Pro. ASIAIR really does a nice job with the captures. But of course it lacks the capabilities of a much more robust program like NINA. I can't tether a laptop to the AIR and the mount and leave it sitting in driveway through the night. ***
Another option would be to buy a stick PC with windows on it ($130 on amazon) and remote in .
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Jure:
You might need to keep the tilt plate installed. It's been a while since I've has a zwo camera in my hands and I can't recall if there are other ways to connect accessories. I believe the zwo filter wheel can connect without the plate in place. Are there threads on the face of the camera? In any event with the zwo tilt plate installed you just lose backfocus spacing.
Keep in mind though, that any and all accessories can contribute to tilt. I measured a zwo tilt plate that was 100 microns thicker from one edge to the other. A source of tilt. Don't feel bad, qhy adapters are equally as variable. Both companies need to do a better job with QC. You can buy a micrometer on Amazon for under $50. They come in very handy.
There is a way to connect the ASI2600mm without the tilt plate directly to the ZWO EFW but since backspacing will not be critical I'll first try with it installed. And buy me a micrometer, indeed!
Thank you again, Chris!
I'd ditch it. Less space between the camera sensor and filters is better. Plus the zwo tilt plates are suspect for adding tilt in my experience. I'm not the only one that has reported this.
Well, as it turned out, I can’t ditch the ASI tilt plate, because I have the old EFW 36mm which cannot be bolted to the 2600 - which in turn has no threads other than on the tilt plate. So, I’m looking at replacing my EFW with the new one - also because with the Neumann’s CTU and the tilt plate installed my BF comes to minimal 57,3mm. Which might even be Ok, since my haphazard attempts suggest a BF of at least 58mm with the 1,0 flattener. But I’d rather have some options when it comes to adjusting the backfocus!
Now for a (probably) silly question: can I do the tilt/backfocus procedure with Hocus Focus or ASTAP if I do not have an autofocuser? I can’t really see how…. My manual microfocuser knob on the TS optics 106mm APO is very precise, but there is no scale or some such. I have no way to tell whether my old thumbs moved it for 100 or 140 steps.
Looks like this wonderful hobby will get even more expensive very soon! New EFW, new EAF, CTU… ouch! 🙂
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Jure:
Well, as it turned out, I can’t ditch the ASI tilt plate, because I have the old EFW 36mm which cannot be bolted to the 2600 - which in turn has no threads other than on the tilt plate. So, I’m looking at replacing my EFW with the new one - also because with the Neumann’s CTU and the tilt plate installed my BF comes to minimal 57,3mm. Which might even be Ok, since my haphazard attempts suggest a BF of at least 58mm with the 1,0 flattener. But I’d rather have some options when it comes to adjusting the backfocus!
Now for a (probably) silly question: can I do the tilt/backfocus procedure with Hocus Focus or ASTAP if I do not have an autofocuser? I can’t really see how…. My manual microfocuser knob on the TS optics 106mm APO is very precise, but there is no scale or some such. I have no way to tell whether my old thumbs moved it for 100 or 140 steps.
Looks like this wonderful hobby will get even more expensive very soon! New EFW, new EAF, CTU… ouch! 🙂
You can always try! You'd need to setup a focuser simulator in NINA, and in between each focus adjustment manually change the focuser position. (Focuser position is required for the plotting). The analysis *might* be effective but I think the curve fit would be suspect to be honest. A quick email to the dev might be helpful.
AF is one of the best upgrades you will ever make. Invest, and dont look back!
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Jure:
Well, as it turned out, I can’t ditch the ASI tilt plate, because I have the old EFW 36mm which cannot be bolted to the 2600 - which in turn has no threads other than on the tilt plate. So, I’m looking at replacing my EFW with the new one - also because with the Neumann’s CTU and the tilt plate installed my BF comes to minimal 57,3mm. Which might even be Ok, since my haphazard attempts suggest a BF of at least 58mm with the 1,0 flattener. But I’d rather have some options when it comes to adjusting the backfocus!
Now for a (probably) silly question: can I do the tilt/backfocus procedure with Hocus Focus or ASTAP if I do not have an autofocuser? I can’t really see how…. My manual microfocuser knob on the TS optics 106mm APO is very precise, but there is no scale or some such. I have no way to tell whether my old thumbs moved it for 100 or 140 steps.
Looks like this wonderful hobby will get even more expensive very soon! New EFW, new EAF, CTU… ouch! 🙂
You can always try! You'd need to setup a focuser simulator in NINA, and in between each focus adjustment manually change the focuser position. (Focuser position is required for the plotting). The analysis *might* be effective but I think the curve fit would be suspect to be honest. A quick email to the dev might be helpful.
AF is one of the best upgrades you will ever make. Invest, and dont look back!
Thanks Chris, I will drop a mail to George if manual focusing is feasible. As soon as I get summer holidays out of the way I’ll get going. Should be interesting, I’ll try at native 700mm FL first and then also at 525mm, F/4,95. I’ll report here what I come up with.
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Manually focusing for this analysis is some serious dedication! 😄
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Manually focusing for this analysis is some serious dedication! 😄
Heh, I still remember the nights when I manually guided my first DSO images. On film, with an OAG on my 10” SCT at F/6,3. Illuminated crosshairs, controller in hand, pushing buttons, trying to keep the faint guiding star in the crosshairs! After the 90 minute exposure was done, I discovered that the battery in my Olympus had died. No image. Oh, happy days! 😀
Just checked… EAF will be available on August 20th, so if my experiment fails… but I guess I should get one in any case, Chris is right.
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Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
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Steeve Body:
Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
*** at what price are they talking? ***
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Paul Wilson:
Steeve Body:
Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
*** at what price are they talking? ***
Click on the link for details but right now pre orders are at $750….
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Steeve Body:
Paul Wilson:
Steeve Body:
Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
*** at what price are they talking? ***
Click on the link for details but right now pre orders are at $750….
Pretty cool device there. Good to see other options popping up. If I end up needing precision tilt and backfocus for another camera I'll certainly consider this solution.
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Steeve Body:
Paul Wilson:
Steeve Body:
Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
*** at what price are they talking? ***
Click on the link for details but right now pre orders are at $750….
Pretty cool device there. Good to see other options popping up. If I end up needing precision tilt and backfocus for another camera I'll certainly consider this solution.
Yeah very cool device indeed and if you have a RASA you pretty much want one! Nice owner too, I had a good chat with him, seem like a genuine passionate guy.
Price point is a bit high for me at this stage but apparently they are pretty expensive to make and they are are not making a big margin on these... so considering how niche this is it is probably a fair call.... For me in Australia the exchange rate is so bad at the moment that it just put it out of my reach.
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The video on their site is good to watch as it walks through the Hocus Focus analysis and adjustments on the device, via the 3D model. Even if you used a different device like the Octopi, the workflow is all there.
https://youtu.be/i950CYNBYrc |
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Steeve Body:
Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
Thank you for the heads-up, Steeve! I just ordered a Photon Cage. Don’t own a RASA, just a 106mm APO, but this is too good to pass. Price is steep, but after mailing with Josh for the better part of the day I am convinced. Life is too short to be spent fiddling with equipment while the skies are dark and clear!
Josh is a great guy, very helpful and ready to assist. We went through the whole imaging train step by step and I am now sure that I will have what I need in view of all sorts of adapters, threads and whatnot.
if anyone is wondering, postage to Europe comes to 88 USD.
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Jure:
Steeve Body:
Just spoke to Josh from ASG Astronomy. They just opened pre order on their Photon Cage which is very similar to an Octopi with some extras with 4 corner tilt control, backfocus adjustment, filter slider if you want to... kind of a must if you are a RASA owner.
https://www.asgastronomy.com/store/asg-photon-cage/
I seriously considering getting one...
Thank you for the heads-up, Steeve! I just ordered a Photon Cage. Don’t own a RASA, just a 106mm APO, but this is too good to pass. Price is steep, but after mailing with Josh for the better part of the day I am convinced. Life is too short to be spent fiddling with equipment while the skies are dark and clear!
Josh is a great guy, very helpful and ready to assist. We went through the whole imaging train step by step and I am now sure that I will have what I need in view of all sorts of adapters, threads and whatnot.
if anyone is wondering, postage to Europe comes to 88 USD.
Awesome Jure! I think it is money well spent. I hear you, as much as I like tinkering I would much rather be taking pictures and not worry about that stuff.
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Chris I'm not sure what's wrong but my Stack Headings are different than yours. Not sure why the discrepency. Could they correspond and just need to be renamed?
Mine are .... Yours are ....
File File
Exposure Exposure
Temperature Temperature
Binning Width Binning Width
Height Height
Type Type
Date/Time Date/Time
Star detections Star detections
FocPos FocPos
hfd hfd
hfd cent hfd cent
hfd out hfd out
hfd 11 hfd bottom left
hfd 21 hfd bottom right
hfd 31 hfd top left
hfd 12 hfd top right
hfd 32 Error
hfd 13 Error
hfd 23 Error
hfd 33 Error
Error Error
Error
Error
Error
Error
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Seymore Stars:
Chris I'm not sure what's wrong but my Stack Headings are different than yours. Not sure why the discrepency. Could they correspond and just need to be renamed?
Mine are .... Yours are ....
File File
Exposure Exposure
Temperature Temperature
Binning Width Binning Width
Height Height
Type Type
Date/Time Date/Time
Star detections Star detections
FocPos FocPos
hfd hfd
hfd cent hfd cent
hfd out hfd out
hfd 11 hfd bottom left
hfd 21 hfd bottom right
hfd 31 hfd top left
hfd 12 hfd top right
hfd 32 Error
hfd 13 Error
hfd 23 Error
hfd 33 Error
Error Error
Error
Error
Error
Error
Steve,
I may have changed the header names in excel so I would not get confused when i created the graphs. Can you share a screenshot of the astap hyperbole fitting analysis results?
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In the interest of sharing, I did get a chance to play with the Octopi last night and the first lesson I learned the hard way was -- even if you are in a rush to try and get it setup and tested the same night, like me, be sure to zero the device out. Otherwise, the back focus will be way off! Ooops. 
All fixed now with Chris' help. Should be able to dig in further tomorrow night.
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Steve,
I may have changed the header names in excel so I would not get confused when i created the graphs. Can you share a screenshot of the astap hyperbole fitting analysis results?
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Thank you Chris!!
leftMost columns...
rightMost columns...
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3.05
20.43
0.90
When I see that the original poster has an ASTAP report of tilt at a "mild" 10%, I am very jealous and vexed. My most recent light subs, from an image for a mosaic that turned out quit nice but has terrible stars shows an ASTAP tilt of "extreme 36%". I doubt many guys would want to live with this.
1.43
11.02
10.80
0.00
