So I'm thinking of both upgrading the guidescope to something like an Orion ST80, or one of the Astronomics doublets, and getting a dew heater.
One thing that I'm wondering about is how I'm gonna attach another guidescope to this strange shoe/mounting thing: (zoom in)
Or I can get an OAG, but then I wonder whether my stock focuser would be able to hold up my oag + guidecam + main cam and still not have tilt issues.
I would be wary of using a larger guide scope. The ST80 is pretty large. I moved from a small guidescope, to the large ST80, then back to a smaller guidescope, before finally moving to OAG.
The potential risk you run with using a larger guidescope like the ST80, is that it may in fact make things worse. The increased length, weight, etc. could exacerbate issues with differential flexure and the like. I ended up swapping the ST80 out for another smaller guidescope, and a much better way to mount it (two rings, near front and back, rather than the single holder jus at the rear, as in your picture above), which did help.
In the long run, the external guidescope always seemed to be a limiting factor (even with a double ring holder there were still differential flexure issues), and I was never able to achieve longer exposures until I finally moved to a system where I could use an OAG. Once I moved to OAG, I was able to not only get guiding performance down to around 0.2-0.4" but able to maintain more consistent guiding performance as well.
I can't speak to the ability of your particular system and its ability to support an OAG. There are some pretty thin ones out there...I have one that in and of itself is a mere 9mm, from TSOptics. I don't know if they still carry it or not...last time I checked (and its been a few years) they had an 11mm one.
If you are NOT able to use an OAG, I would at the very least, try to replace the current mount for your 50mm Orion guidescope. That only holds the guidescope at one plane near the back. I was never able to eliminate flexure with the weight of the front part of the scope pulling around that one plane of support in the back. I would highly recommend getting a dual ring setup with 3-points in both rings so you can more rigidly hold the scope at both the front and the back. That might help minimize differential flexure, if you in fact cannot use an OAG.
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Interesting to read through all the discussion on this. A lot of it fits with my experiences. So for what it is worth I thought I would offer a few thoughts based on what I've seen.
I have a fairly similar setup. 200mm Newtonian with 1000mm focal length, 50mm guide scope with 200mm focal length (a cheap and cheerful one), ASI120MC guide camera, AZ-EQ6 mount. I used to use an ST80 for guiding, but find the smaller scope works just as well - it is also a lot lighter and so I think makes like easier for the mount. To prevent dew on the guide scope glass I have made a hood - out of plastic rather than cardboard - so that it doesn't get soggy - which extends forwards a decent distance in front of the existing hood and provides shielding. Measures just over 100mm from glass to front of extended hood. That works 100% for me. Never get any dew on the glass. My typical guide RMS is about 0.6 arc seconds. Sometimes slightly better, sometimes a little worse, depending on weather and probably other things.
Agree with others that decent polar alignment should make a lot of difference - or rather that poor alignment is likely to hurt performance. Same for levelling of the mount, which should be done as precisely as possible. If not good it will likely have similar effects to poor polar alignment.
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BTW, my DIY guide scope dew shield didn't work; it only delayed the dew from getting on the glass.
Also, I already posted two of the images I took last night (Betelgeuse and Mizar/Alcor), and I'm gonna also post images of M101 and M3.
And, I'll probably get an OAG, because I like my newt, and I want good guiding.
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Just wondered - how long is your DIY dew shield (from glass to front of hood)?
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Since I use both Indigo and Nina for imaging, I remember an article by Rumen (a developer behind Indigo) on guiding. This article actually helped me a bit in understanding. With my standard equipment (a 150mm newtonian, a simple 30mm ZWO guide scope, iOptron GEM28) I can get to 0.6" and 0.7" with exposures between 1 and 2 seconds when things are going well, what also depends on weather and seeing. For dew heating, I only have a simple one mounted on the guide scope via USB, which works well enough.
Funnily, I purchased an OAG, but I unfortunately can't get into focus with the main camera on the current focuser on the 150PDS anymore, so I simply stick to the guide scope for now. :-) But this seems to be a general issue with smaller newtonians.
https://github.com/indigo-astronomy/indigo/blob/master/indigo_docs/GUIDING_MISCONCEPTIONS.md |
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Tim Ellison:
Just wondered - how long is your DIY dew shield (from glass to front of hood)?
It was 5.5 inches
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And I just got an Askar OAG (is this a good one? It looks high quality) and ZWO UV-IR cut filter, so those are gonna be big upgrades.
I also fixed 2 problems a few minutes ago:
1st problem:
One of my spider vanes was overtightened on purpose (and bent, as a result) to make the light coming off of the mirror hit more space in my focuser, and not risk vignetting with my sensor; because, from the factory, the mirror was not aligned with the focuser.
But this was causing the fat-vertical-diffraction-spike-effect seen in my Betelgeuse image.
So fixed this, and I made the spider vanes to form a perfect cross shape now, and I recollimated the newt again; so now I'm expecting cleaner and sharper diffraction spikes.
But what about my mirror misalignment? I know, but now I realize that the mirror is big enough to fully illuminate my sensor, plus allow me to use an OAG, even if the secondary mirror is slightly off-center from the center of my focuser.
I guess I was imagining the mirror was much smaller; I don't what's wrong with me 
2nd problem:
My focuser tube was intruding into the light-path; If it was doing any harm to my images, I didn't realize it, but I just found out, after a whole 1.5 years of owning my newt, that there are M42 male threads on the focuser itself!
And the M42 to 1.25 visual-back can now be removed, and I can directly attach my 533 to the threads, which allows me bring my focuser tube more outside to reach focus, and that means, no more light-path intrusion! And also this means my 533 has no chance of falling on the ground.
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And I just got an Askar OAG (is this a good one? It looks high quality) and ZWO UV-IR cut filter, so those are gonna be big upgrades.
I also fixed 2 problems a few minutes ago:
1st problem:
One of my spider vanes was overtightened on purpose (and bent, as a result) to make the light coming off of the mirror hit more space in my focuser, and not risk vignetting with my sensor; because, from the factory, the mirror was not aligned with the focuser.
But this was causing the fat-vertical-diffraction-spike-effect seen in my Betelgeuse image.
So fixed this, and I made the spider vanes to form a perfect cross shape now, and I recollimated the newt again; so now I'm expecting cleaner and sharper diffraction spikes.
But what about my mirror misalignment? I know, but now I realize that the mirror is big enough to fully illuminate my sensor, plus allow me to use an OAG, even if the secondary mirror is slightly off-center from the center of my focuser.
I guess I was imagining the mirror was much smaller; I don't what's wrong with me
2nd problem:
My focuser tube was intruding into the light-path; If it was doing any harm to my images, I didn't realize it, but I just found out, after a whole 1.5 years of owning my newt, that there are M42 male threads on the focuser itself!
And the M42 to 1.25 visual-back can now be removed, and I can directly attach my 533 to the threads, which allows me bring my focuser tube more outside to reach focus, and that means, no more light-path intrusion! And also this means my 533 has no chance of falling on the ground.
Next thing you should get is a 1.25 742 IR Pass filter for the OAG, Since IR isn't affected by seeing as much your guiding will improve drastically.
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V.M Legary:
And I just got an Askar OAG (is this a good one? It looks high quality) and ZWO UV-IR cut filter, so those are gonna be big upgrades.
I also fixed 2 problems a few minutes ago:
1st problem:
One of my spider vanes was overtightened on purpose (and bent, as a result) to make the light coming off of the mirror hit more space in my focuser, and not risk vignetting with my sensor; because, from the factory, the mirror was not aligned with the focuser.
But this was causing the fat-vertical-diffraction-spike-effect seen in my Betelgeuse image.
So fixed this, and I made the spider vanes to form a perfect cross shape now, and I recollimated the newt again; so now I'm expecting cleaner and sharper diffraction spikes.
But what about my mirror misalignment? I know, but now I realize that the mirror is big enough to fully illuminate my sensor, plus allow me to use an OAG, even if the secondary mirror is slightly off-center from the center of my focuser.
I guess I was imagining the mirror was much smaller; I don't what's wrong with me
2nd problem:
My focuser tube was intruding into the light-path; If it was doing any harm to my images, I didn't realize it, but I just found out, after a whole 1.5 years of owning my newt, that there are M42 male threads on the focuser itself!
And the M42 to 1.25 visual-back can now be removed, and I can directly attach my 533 to the threads, which allows me bring my focuser tube more outside to reach focus, and that means, no more light-path intrusion! And also this means my 533 has no chance of falling on the ground.
Next thing you should get is a 1.25 742 IR Pass filter for the OAG, Since IR isn't affected by seeing as much your guiding will improve drastically.
That's genius! Are you sure an asi120mm mini would be sensitive enough to be used with an IR pass? I'm unsure it will work good with an OAG without an IR pass.
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V.M Legary:
And I just got an Askar OAG (is this a good one? It looks high quality) and ZWO UV-IR cut filter, so those are gonna be big upgrades.
I also fixed 2 problems a few minutes ago:
1st problem:
One of my spider vanes was overtightened on purpose (and bent, as a result) to make the light coming off of the mirror hit more space in my focuser, and not risk vignetting with my sensor; because, from the factory, the mirror was not aligned with the focuser.
But this was causing the fat-vertical-diffraction-spike-effect seen in my Betelgeuse image.
So fixed this, and I made the spider vanes to form a perfect cross shape now, and I recollimated the newt again; so now I'm expecting cleaner and sharper diffraction spikes.
But what about my mirror misalignment? I know, but now I realize that the mirror is big enough to fully illuminate my sensor, plus allow me to use an OAG, even if the secondary mirror is slightly off-center from the center of my focuser.
I guess I was imagining the mirror was much smaller; I don't what's wrong with me
2nd problem:
My focuser tube was intruding into the light-path; If it was doing any harm to my images, I didn't realize it, but I just found out, after a whole 1.5 years of owning my newt, that there are M42 male threads on the focuser itself!
And the M42 to 1.25 visual-back can now be removed, and I can directly attach my 533 to the threads, which allows me bring my focuser tube more outside to reach focus, and that means, no more light-path intrusion! And also this means my 533 has no chance of falling on the ground.
Next thing you should get is a 1.25 742 IR Pass filter for the OAG, Since IR isn't affected by seeing as much your guiding will improve drastically.
That's genius! Are you sure an asi120mm mini would be sensitive enough to be used with an IR pass? I'm unsure it will work good with an OAG without an IR pass.
I use that exact same camera on OAG- at F/10. It works just fine.
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Christian Bennich:
andrea tasselli:
I would like a guiding accuracy of at least a constant 0.5 arcseconds or smaller.
Prepare to spend a lot more money on the mount, for starters. And then some...
Hahaha, true.
Just prepare to spend a lot of money on anything and everything astrophoto 🤣
Whenever you pull on one end, money disappear on the other end 🤷♂️😃
*** Very true…. You start with cheap beer-few steps -you have 12-years scotch… Problems with the weight of coma corrector and humidity (At cold night I used my wife’ fan to dry up the mirror moved me to APO and ACF, at least in fully closed scope you can fight dew quite effectively vy shields and heating strips -not a problem anymore. As to your current scope -agree, you would need bigger guiding canera and better scope (normally half of your focal lenght or so, or use Barlow lense with guider scope. Newtonianr are my first love and I still have a place in my heart for them, but with a time you would move further to other scopes… I did not have a success with ZWO OAG- leaking light and impossible to make it work with ACF. But for Newtonian should work fine even with corrector… Again, imagine optical traine -corrector, OAG, camera -and all this staff of the side of scope. Even if you turn it all up - all this staff on your focuser, you will decide to replace focuser- good focuser costs as the second tekescope etc.etc.etc. Finally you need to balance the scope well- and your mount is not strong to keep a good guiding. Clear skies!!!  |
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V.M Legary:
V.M Legary:
And I just got an Askar OAG (is this a good one? It looks high quality) and ZWO UV-IR cut filter, so those are gonna be big upgrades.
I also fixed 2 problems a few minutes ago:
1st problem:
One of my spider vanes was overtightened on purpose (and bent, as a result) to make the light coming off of the mirror hit more space in my focuser, and not risk vignetting with my sensor; because, from the factory, the mirror was not aligned with the focuser.
But this was causing the fat-vertical-diffraction-spike-effect seen in my Betelgeuse image.
So fixed this, and I made the spider vanes to form a perfect cross shape now, and I recollimated the newt again; so now I'm expecting cleaner and sharper diffraction spikes.
But what about my mirror misalignment? I know, but now I realize that the mirror is big enough to fully illuminate my sensor, plus allow me to use an OAG, even if the secondary mirror is slightly off-center from the center of my focuser.
I guess I was imagining the mirror was much smaller; I don't what's wrong with me
2nd problem:
My focuser tube was intruding into the light-path; If it was doing any harm to my images, I didn't realize it, but I just found out, after a whole 1.5 years of owning my newt, that there are M42 male threads on the focuser itself!
And the M42 to 1.25 visual-back can now be removed, and I can directly attach my 533 to the threads, which allows me bring my focuser tube more outside to reach focus, and that means, no more light-path intrusion! And also this means my 533 has no chance of falling on the ground.
Next thing you should get is a 1.25 742 IR Pass filter for the OAG, Since IR isn't affected by seeing as much your guiding will improve drastically.
That's genius! Are you sure an asi120mm mini would be sensitive enough to be used with an IR pass? I'm unsure it will work good with an OAG without an IR pass.
I use that exact same camera on OAG- at F/10. It works just fine.
Alright, thank you! Next on my shopping list: Askar filter drawer and 742 IR pass filter.
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@V.M Legary,
The 742 IR pass is not being sold on Agena, but I want to buy from Agena because they're more trusted and they're a faster shipper.
How about a 685 or 850 one? Which of those is the best for guiding?
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Interesting that the quite long hood wasn't preventing dew on the guide scope glass. But probably not worth worrying further about, as I expect you will be fixing the dew issue by using a heater or going down the OAG route. I hope you get everything sorted. Best of luck!
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@V.M Legary,
The 742 IR pass is not being sold on Agena, but I want to buy from Agena because they're more trusted and they're a faster shipper.
How about a 685 or 850 one? Which of those is the best for guiding?
I'd buy from HPS to avoid sales tax. Agena has to enforce their operating state's sales tax, whereas HPS doesn't (also I don't trust Agena with a snowball in an ice storm, have had a few instances of them "forgetting" to ship). 850nm wont work well and 685nm is too wide.
Make sure they're 1.25", so you can thread them right on the camera.
also make sure that your filter drawer for your main camera's filter is behind the OAG so that the IR pass can work.
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V.M Legary:
@V.M Legary,
The 742 IR pass is not being sold on Agena, but I want to buy from Agena because they're more trusted and they're a faster shipper.
How about a 685 or 850 one? Which of those is the best for guiding?
I'd buy from HPS to avoid sales tax. Agena has to enforce their operating state's sales tax, whereas HPS doesn't (also I don't trust Agena with a snowball in an ice storm, have had a few instances of them "forgetting" to ship). 850nm wont work well and 685nm is too wide.
Make sure they're 1.25", so you can thread them right on the camera.
also make sure that your filter drawer for your main camera's filter is behind the OAG so that the IR pass can work.
Okay, will buy from HPS.
Yeah, I'm gonna follow this diagram:
Thanks for everything!
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I use an Orion Starshoot on a 60 mm guidescope with 5 second exposures, and typically get RMS error of 0.1 pixel and sometimes less.
I’ve found Maxim DL’s multi-star guiding noticeably improved guiding performance.
CS, Bob
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Robert Gillette:
I use an Orion Starshoot on a 60 mm guidescope with 5 second exposures, and typically get RMS error of 0.1 pixel and sometimes less.
I’ve found Maxim DL’s multi-star guiding noticeably improved guiding performance.
CS, Bob
Just FYI, Phd has multi star as well and it does help.
30 years of imaging has shown me that guide scopes are mostly not worth the trouble ( having tried them more than once). Differential flexure will get you eventually regardless of how heavy duty and robust your system is. The worst part is that because the flexure changes with on sky scope position (since the forces due to gravity on the system change magnitude and direction), what works in one place and time in the sky will not work in another. Just when you "think" you have it nailed, it will bite you again.
It is not worth the annoyance and the only time I have seen it work reliably is with very short focal lengths and tiny systems (like camera lenses) but by the time you go that small, you may not need to guide anyway.
Just my .02.... |
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V.M Legary:
@V.M Legary,
The 742 IR pass is not being sold on Agena, but I want to buy from Agena because they're more trusted and they're a faster shipper.
How about a 685 or 850 one? Which of those is the best for guiding?
I'd buy from HPS to avoid sales tax. Agena has to enforce their operating state's sales tax, whereas HPS doesn't (also I don't trust Agena with a snowball in an ice storm, have had a few instances of them "forgetting" to ship). 850nm wont work well and 685nm is too wide.
Make sure they're 1.25", so you can thread them right on the camera.
also make sure that your filter drawer for your main camera's filter is behind the OAG so that the IR pass can work.
Okay, will buy from HPS.
Yeah, I'm gonna follow this diagram:
Thanks for everything!
Looks good to me. Max your gain out on the 120, and use 0.5-1s exposures when in IR, since you don't really chase the seeing in IR, you can use quick input to minimize large spikes like you've described.
Somehow your AVX guides as well as my 6R. (Albeit my 6R does act funny)
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V.M Legary:
V.M Legary:
@V.M Legary,
The 742 IR pass is not being sold on Agena, but I want to buy from Agena because they're more trusted and they're a faster shipper.
How about a 685 or 850 one? Which of those is the best for guiding?
I'd buy from HPS to avoid sales tax. Agena has to enforce their operating state's sales tax, whereas HPS doesn't (also I don't trust Agena with a snowball in an ice storm, have had a few instances of them "forgetting" to ship). 850nm wont work well and 685nm is too wide.
Make sure they're 1.25", so you can thread them right on the camera.
also make sure that your filter drawer for your main camera's filter is behind the OAG so that the IR pass can work.
Okay, will buy from HPS.
Yeah, I'm gonna follow this diagram:
Thanks for everything!
Looks good to me. Max your gain out on the 120, and use 0.5-1s exposures when in IR, since you don't really chase the seeing in IR, you can use quick input to minimize large spikes like you've described.
Somehow your AVX guides as well as my 6R. (Albeit my 6R does act funny)
Will do.
I guess I got a special AVX mount or something.
Hopefully I can maintain an accuracy of 0.6" or, even better.
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I've been guiding in the IR for years using an IR850 filter and a IR sensitive guide camera. While I agree that it does reduce effects of seeing on your guiding, it does not eliminate it. You will still have worse guiding on nights of bad seeing. That's where the theory and practical line blur. I also find that nights of bad seeing usually correspond with higher wind which also impacts mount performance unless you are completely sheltered.
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V.M Legary:
V.M Legary:
@V.M Legary,
The 742 IR pass is not being sold on Agena, but I want to buy from Agena because they're more trusted and they're a faster shipper.
How about a 685 or 850 one? Which of those is the best for guiding?
I'd buy from HPS to avoid sales tax. Agena has to enforce their operating state's sales tax, whereas HPS doesn't (also I don't trust Agena with a snowball in an ice storm, have had a few instances of them "forgetting" to ship). 850nm wont work well and 685nm is too wide.
Make sure they're 1.25", so you can thread them right on the camera.
also make sure that your filter drawer for your main camera's filter is behind the OAG so that the IR pass can work.
Okay, will buy from HPS.
Yeah, I'm gonna follow this diagram:
Thanks for everything!
Looks good to me. Max your gain out on the 120, and use 0.5-1s exposures when in IR, since you don't really chase the seeing in IR, you can use quick input to minimize large spikes like you've described.
Somehow your AVX guides as well as my 6R. (Albeit my 6R does act funny)
Will do.
I guess I got a special AVX mount or something.
Hopefully I can maintain an accuracy of 0.6" or, even better.
Lucky you…. I had so many problems with my Advanced including good guiding…. It did not work at all the the South Hemisphere and I had to spend two weeks emails and phone calls to make it work. Since I switched to Skywatcher HQ-5 Pro and cannot be happier …
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Bill McLaughlin:
30 years of imaging has shown me that guide scopes are mostly not worth the trouble ( having tried them more than once). Differential flexure will get you eventually regardless of how heavy duty and robust your system is. The worst part is that because the flexure changes with on sky scope position (since the forces due to gravity on the system change magnitude and direction), what works in one place and time in the sky will not work in another. Just when you "think" you have it nailed, it will bite you again.
30 years of imaging showed me just the opposite, go figure...
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I've used the NIR ONAG solution for some time. The biggest benefit is on axis guiding similar to OAG. With regard to Near Infrared guiding I didn't see a considerable difference.
I did notice a considerable difference when I ditched guiding using a guide star and relied upon absolute encoders, mount model, real time refraction and accurate PC clock.
So my best guess is to try an OAG and see how it goes. In the end the only way to improve guiding is to get a better mount so that fewer and fewer corrections are needed.
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8.59
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4.02
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2.11
2.41
6.26
5.21
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